Posted on 08/11/2006 4:31:10 AM PDT by grundle
I think there is a disconnect going on in this discussion.
You say "there is quite a shortage of engineers"
Engineers say "there's no shortage; that's why lots of engineers are flipping burgers and working at Lowe's."
I think maybe both are correct, but only if your statement is modified like this: "There is quite a shortage of engineers with the specific experience I am looking for"
My observation from hiring engineers is that most managers want someone who has very specific experience. There is no training available for engineers anymore and companies expect to hire someone who is ready to hit the ground running, so to speak. There is no thought given to hiring someone to be a productive employee for a long period of time, i.e., someone who has good basic skills and a good work ethic.
Yes, they will hire someone with just basic skills -- but only for very low wages. Hence the growth in outsourcing and H1-Bs and the willingness to hire new grads.
This plague upon engineering seems unique to the field. My family members who are accountants don't seem to get pigeonholed into a specific area of expertise as easily as engineers. But when a company sets out to hire a EE or CE they expect to find someone with experience working with a specific family of processors and a specific set of development tools, and if they can't find that they get impatient.
Sure, they could find someone with related skills and give them some OJT-type training but they are not willing. It's easier to just complain that "there is a shortage of engineers so we need more H1-Bs".
IOW, there's really not a shortage. There are people who could step into those jobs and no doubt some of the engineers would rather take a pay cut and retrain in another area of expertise than go flip burgers, but employers won't even consider doing that.
As both an engineer and someone who hires engineers, I have a different point of view. But for someone whose training and experience was computer hardware, I'm not interested in a couple years of training to make them competent enough to design a 13,800 Volt Switchgear. But I can use people from the pulp/paper or other industry who has experience in 480V motor control centers, UPS and power transformers and train them about hazardous area classification and the specific codes we have to follow. EE is a broad field and it takes more than a little training to make large jumps in technology.
"But for someone whose training and experience was computer hardware, I'm not interested in a couple years of training to make them competent enough to design a 13,800 Volt Switchgear."
That's pretty obvious. I probably didn't explain myself well, because that's not what I meant.
I have the same background as you, but in the computer h/w and s/w area. And my observation is that they often look for someone with very specific expertise with a certain processor, certain design methodology and specific tools, and if they can't find that they fall back and post an H1-B. My thoughts are that someone with good skills in h/w and s/w can adapt to another processor or some other tool but I get alot of pushback on this.
Then you don't have the same background. I specialized in power, I took no electronics or computer design courses besides the absolute minimum required. I have never worked in the electronics or utility industry. When I took my PE exam, I flipped passed the computer section and tested in power. Quite honestly, although your degree says BSEE, you have as much in common with our work as a mechanical engineer. You have a high level of knowledge and the ability to learn. Perhaps on the instrument and control side you could fit in. We do do training, but not from scratch.
I jumbled to thoughts together there. I never worked electronics or computers. I moved from the utility industry to the petrochem.
"...its sterling reputation as the world's leader in engineering."
Huh?
Excellent post!
I think you sum up the situation pretty well.
In the many years that I worked for Fortune 500 companies as an EE, I was never offered a chance by the company to upgrade my HW/SW skills. What I did, I did on my own.
I repeatedly ask to attend classes on newer processors or new languages. It was never granted.
There appears to be a prevailing mentality that engineers are commodity items, to be used and discarded. No attempt is made to train engineers in newer technologies that will be useful to the company and the employee.
A good friend of mine actully overheard our CEO state the opinion that "After you have employed an engineer for 5 years it's time to get rid of him, he's obsolete"
This kind of thinking will guarantee "shortages" forever.
If we treated doctors like this, we'd be in a world of hurt.
Have you seen the new VW adverts with "Dr. Z" touting "German Engineering". I just laugh.
"You have a high level of knowledge and the ability to learn. Perhaps on the instrument and control side you could fit in. We do do training, but not from scratch."
I'm not looking to move; I'm merely having a discussion.
And you completely missed my point.
I recently snagged a copy of "Hitler's Gift", a Brit book about the many (mostly) Jewish scientists who bailed out of Germany and settled in GB or USA prior to WWII (Einstein, etc). Good read.
"All your German rocket scientists are belong to us" (or the rooskis) ;>)
Beliefs have consequences.
"In the many years that I worked for Fortune 500 companies as an EE, I was never offered a chance by the company to upgrade my HW/SW skills. What I did, I did on my own."
Yep, sounds familiar.
"A good friend of mine actully overheard our CEO state the opinion that "After you have employed an engineer for 5 years it's time to get rid of him, he's obsolete"
They do exhibit that kind of thinking.
I suppose it's the project nature of the work. They really just want to staff up when they have a project to do. Problem is that when the project is done there can be some down time until the next one. That kind of stuff drives bean counters crazy.
"engineers are commodity items"
A friend of mine has a sign which says, "Engineering designs -- 3 for a dollar". That's the way managers look at it, sort of like, "I have a leaky faucet, I call a plumber. When the plumber is finished I don't continue to pay him until the next time I need a faucet worked on. Why should I keep engineers around when their project is finished?"
EE's without work..
Apply here:
http://www.selinc.com/careers/index.html
Yep - my mistake. But the point still holds for either VW or Daimler.
I don't think that was the problem. The problem from their point of view was that in Germany there is a class of "skilled workers", people who may not have an engineering degree, but are highly skilled at manufacturing techniques such as high-end machining. Apparently these people are harder to find in the U.S.
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