Airbus blasts Boeing over its 'big lies'

The Australian ^ | 11 Aug 06 (It's tomorrow Down Under!) | Steve Creedy

[Yo-Yo]

The Europeans are back on the offensive, writes Steve Creedy

11 Aug 06

THE battle of the superjumbos has hit new levels with European manufacturer Airbus accusing US rival Boeing of telling "big lies" about its double-decker A380.

While manufacturers have always sniped at each other's usually conflicting comparisons of aircraft performance, Airbus says it is incensed at Boeing's latest attempts to sell the 747-8, the stretch version of the venerable jumbo jet. The Europeans are back on the offensive after being thrown into crisis earlier this year when production problems forced it to delay the delivery of the first A380s by another six months.

"Quite frankly, we have to put a few things right regarding the A380 compared with the 747-8 and their freighter stablemate because Boeing has just been putting what can only be termed big lies in the marketplace about the A380," Airbus A380 marketing director Richard Carcaillet said in Sydney this week.

Airbus has so far sold 159 of the double-decker planes to 16 customers, including 25 freighters.

It booked three new customers and 20 orders in 2005 and so far this year has sold an additional nine planes to Singapore Airlines.

It expects to announce more orders this year and says it already has half of the 16 major 747 operators as customers.

Boeing, which has yet to announce a major airline customer for the passenger version of the 747-8, claims the stretch 747 can beat the A380 on costs per seat as well as for a total trip.

It also contends the 747-8 is more structurally efficient than the A380 in terms of operating empty weight per seat.

The US plane maker has 29 orders and commitments for the new plane, including an agreement with former A380F customer Emirates to buy 10 freighters. But Airbus says Boeing is stretching a 40-year-old design to the limits compared with its completely new A380.

By contrast, it says, the A380 is at the start of its development cycle with stretch versions of the big plane still to come.

It expects to launch variants with greater range or bigger capacity as and when the market requires.

It also accuses Boeing of ignoring reality in its comparison between the two planes.

"What the airlines wanted, and asked us to provide, was an aircraft that is not only bigger but with more performance in terms of range, in particular, than the 747-400.

"And the A380 is 50 per cent more productive through the combination of more capacity and more range than the 747-400. In contrast to that, what Boeing are offering today ... is only 16 per cent more productive.

"Why? Because they wanted, of course, to try and match the range of the A380 so they announced the same, or slightly better, range than the A380.

"In order to do that they are hitting the limits of the old 747 wing, which basically just has a minor tweak, and their capacity increase is only 8 per cent, instead of 35 per cent (for the A380), compared with the 747-400."

Other claims under dispute include the number of airports to which the A380 will fly - Boeing estimates about 30, while Airbus predicts around 70 by 2010 - and the way traffic growth will develop.

Airbus also argues the wider cabin on its plane will be more comfortable, allowing wider economy seats and giving airlines more scope to install the next generation of business and first-class suites.

It says the cabin will be quieter with low-speed airconditioning that will put an end to drafts.

But it is Boeing's claims about the 747-8 that it has lower seat-mile costs and structural efficiency that have seriously raised Airbus's dander.

Airbus says Boeing's structural efficiency claim is invalid, that the 747-8 will be heavier than Boeing says it will be, and that cost comparisons fall convincingly in favour of the A380.

Mr Carcaillet said seat-mile costs on the A380 were 20 per cent lower than the 747-400 and 12 per cent lower than the 747-8.

He accused Boeing of putting "huge mark-ups" on the A380's empty weight and fuel burn to enable it to show bigger differences than were actually the case.

He said Boeing's estimates were in many cases double those used by Airbus.

This enabled Boeing to say the operating empty weight per seat of the 747-8 was 13 per cent below the A380 when it was only 7 per cent.

Boeing estimated the 747-8's fuel burn per seat to be 14 per cent below the A380 but Airbus calculated that the double-decker plane was 5 per cent better.

"One of many erroneous statements that Boeing are putting out regularly and repeatedly in the marketplace is that the 747-8 is the lowest-cost large aircraft," he said. "It is basically wrong."

Mr Carcaillet said the discrepancies between the Boeing and Airbus claims about the A380 freighter were even worse.

The freighter version will be introduced into service two years after the passenger model and has been ordered by logistics giants UPS and Federal Express.

"Without going into too much detail, a big source of the incredible comparisons Boeing is putting out about the A380 freighter is that they assume ... that the A380 freighter versus the 747-8 freighter weight difference is not 70 tonnes, as it is, but 85 tonnes," Mr Carcaillet said. "They just assume the aircraft will be so far off its target and it's not."

Although not prepared to comment on whether Airbus would still deliver its first plane by the end of the year, Mr Carcaillet said the A380 was meeting all its performance guarantees.

[Yo-Yo]

Here is the source of the "big lie"

Randy's Journal: Archives
27 April 2006
Weight a minute

I've heard that the competition is complaining that Boeing is out there "grossly exaggerating" the weight differences between the A380 freighter and the new 747-8F - to make the case that the 747-8 freighter is more efficient than their A380F.

Well, okay, yes we do say their airplane is heavier. And my Airbus counterparts would have you believe this is public relations "smoke and mirrors." But it's simple arithmetic we're talking about here.

I mean, why would you want to buy an airplane that hauls 74 tonnes more weight on every trip, just so you can have the capability to carry 7 tonnes more revenue payload? That's right, every time an A380F takes off, it will be carrying 74 tonnes of extra weight. If you ask me, that's the definition of a very inefficient freighter.

Let's do the math.

The A380F tips the scales at 74 tonnes more OEW than the 747-8F.

According to Airbus' own published data, the A380F will carry 141 tonnes of revenue payload, minus tare - "tare" being the weight of the containers and pallets the freight is loaded on or in.

By comparison, the 747-8F can carry 134 tonnes, minus tare.

The difference then is 7 tonnes. Which means, the A380F can carry that much more in revenue payload. Follow me so far?

Now, the A380F's operating empty weight (OEW), as published by Airbus, is 252 tonnes, excluding tare. The 747-8F's OEW is 178 tonnes, excluding tare.

The difference here is 74 tonnes. The A380F weighs 74 tonnes more than the 747-8F. Simple, right?

Then, if you divide the revenue payload capacity for the A380F (141 tonnes) by the corresponding figure for the 747-8F (134 tonnes), you discover that the A380F carries 5% more revenue payload.

Now, divide the 252 tonnes of OEW for the A380F by the 178 tonnes of OEW for the 747-8F. The result is that the A380F carries over 40% more airplane structure weight than the 747-8F.

Bottom line: with the A380F, you're flying around over 40% more airplane structural weight for only 5% more revenue payload!

That's not a good trade-off. And it's why Boeing believes the 747-8F will consume about 30% less fuel per trip and well over 20% less fuel per tonne.

This has nothing to do with "Boeing PR." And has everything to do with simple math.

[The KG9 Kid]

If I were a Boeing media relations guy, I'd just point at the scoreboard on order sales versus Airbus and not say a word.

[in hoc signo vinces]

Ahhh...the lamentations of "Airburst".

[the invisib1e hand]

the problem with being attached to the teat of the state is that your business is insuperable from your politics.

euros...that parade through my neighborhood each and every day by the thousands..slouching, slovenly, mealy-mouthed, rude; women dressed like comatose sluts, men dressed like women. Puffy, soft, and undisciplined.

Europe has bred a few generations of human pillows.

[DustyMoment]

Airbus blasts Boeing over its 'big lies'

Bwahahaahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Can we say "380"? How about "Heads rolling at EADS"?

If anyone knows about "big lies" it is certainly Airbus.

[gogeo]

Although not prepared to comment on whether Airbus would still deliver its first plane by the end of the year, Mr Carcaillet said the A380 was meeting all its performance guarantees.

No planes have been delivered...how would performance be measured?

[mad_as_he$$]

If it ain't Boeing I ain't going. End of story.

[Attention Surplus Disorder]

Airbus' lies tend to have to do more mundane topics such as schematic & wiring diagrams and delivery schedules. Yawn, so boring.

[alecqss]

"Airbus says Boeing is stretching a 40-year-old design to the limits compared with its completely new A380"

After this you can safely stop reading since there is no major design differences (though Airbus might have some rather unfortunate technical problems to fix).

[Proud_USA_Republican]

Shows how desperate Airbust has become.

[hosepipe]

AirBus... Oh the terrorists will LOVE this monster..

[sr4402]

The big thing about weight is the Airports. Few airports can handle the A380F. Therefore Airbus has to adopt the hub and spoke approach. You fly to the city that can handle the A380F that goes to another city that can handle the A380F and then take a plane to your destination.

The 747-8F flys direct from many cities to other cities currently handling 747s that the A380F can't go.

Awww... to bad Airbus... You've been Tahmanated.

[genetic homophobe]

I ran across a stewardess(I...I...I mean flight attendant), she said they all call 'em "Scarebuses".

[cmsgop]

It's All Been a "Pack Of Lies" !!!

[longtermmemmory]

tHAT IS like saying automakers are streching the four wheel automobile design.

[alecqss]

Exactly!

[alecqss]

Exactly!

[NavyCanDo]

Slap wings on a movie theater, and that’s what the inside of this behemoth will look like. The casinos, the grand piano, the comfortable lounge all look good in the artist conceptions, but in reality the A380 will be seats, seats and more seats.
Airbus claims the A380 will be anywhere from 15 percent to 20 percent more efficient for airlines to operate than the 747-400, which seats about 416 passengers in three classes. But you can’t have it both ways.
If the A380 is turned into a flying cruise ship, they say, then the promised operating gains over the 747 evaporate.
It's a nice idea, but airlines are in the business of earning revenue. . . . If all this was that great an idea, why not do it on the 747? There is no structural limitation.
Boeing made the right decision - -stick with the 787 which is being sold beyond any ones expectations, and the keep pumping out those hot 737’s which by the way somewhere around the world a Boeing 737 off every six seconds.

[longtermmemmory]

What REALLY needs to happen is to reduce transport TIME.

We need FASTER planes. The concord failed due to its noise issues so we need something that flies higher to avoid the issue.

Perhaps we should se a goal of NY to Hongkong, non stop for $99 (round trip) in two hours. ok, its just a goal.