Posted on 07/26/2006 9:35:01 AM PDT by cajunman
Noah, John, Paul, Luke and Mary
Andrea planned for 2 days how to kill them. Shooting was too loud. Stabbing, too bloody. Sweet Noah, 7, was chased down by his killer. He fought to live....twisting free twice to get a breath. She claims he said, "I'm sorry"...before he finally died. She left him floating face down in a tub of water, feces and vomit. He was too heavy to lift out and place on the bed....and she was really tired after the murders.
Why don't these women ever kill themselves? Why is it always the kids?
I predict she'll be out in 6 months and be the darling of the media.
If this was a man who did this, every single one of you would be screaming for his head. You think my opinion is repugnant? Deal with it.
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No I think you are right on! There's a insidious meme going about that women are too stupid/weak/emotional to do anything right, so they can't be blamed for any mistakes. Or perhaps more strongly, men (particularly white straight ones) are the only humans who can do anything right, so when something goes wrong they get all the blame.
I believe you that is why it must be prescribed correctly for several reasons. A dosage of 1-2 MG of Xanax once or twice a day is a disaster waiting to happen. There shouldn't even be a 1 or 2 mg Xanax pill made. For a light build person 1 mg should do them for 24 hours and for heavy build 2 mg for 24 hours. But the whole secret is to take the dosage and divide it by a forth and give it ever 6 hours. A very small dosage but a very consistent one resolves several issues. One is craving needing more and more. It's rare when prescribed in this manner. Another is the Yo-yo effect of giving them twice a day does as the effective life is 6 hour and 8 ours at the very most. Another is you can skip one and most likely not even realize it sometimes. It also allows for in cases like mine to take an extra pill to stop an ongoing attack or prevent one when knowing in advance you're going into a triggering enviroment. The attacks I have in severe attacks is what is called :
Stimulus-sensitive myoclonus is triggered by a variety of external events, including noise, movement, and light. Surprise may increase the sensitivity of the patient.
This basically involves violent short duration spams in the upper extremities such as shoulder & neck. They last two seconds max and can be as many as several in a minute. It is literally a form of seizure's from sensory processing overload. A bad attack or worse one can have you driving and losing any idea of where you are, where you are going, how long you've been there, etc. Harmless but if you don't understand what's going on it is scary as hell. Now for me these are rare but a nuisanse rather than scarring the devil out of me. I thought I was having a stroke the first time. This won't show up on CAT SCANs, MRI, or Brain Wave testing. It usually passes in 30 minutes to an hour. In a pinch one Xanax can likely do it in 15 minutes if you put it under the tongue. Also I do not drink alcohol except on very rare occasions and in very small amounts.
I've gone nearly 16 hours without a pill several times. My wife has taken the .25 mg dosage for 20 years once to three times a day. The difference is she weighs 110 and I weigh 250. Most days I can take 3 pills. But I started out on 2mg pills 2 times a day. My doctor at the time didn't understand how to prescribe it and it didn't help but rather did more harm than good. The reason she was on Zoloft and Trazodone was for PTSS. A dentist had nearly killed her with Mepragan {sp} and put her in a COMA. She later needed dentures and was scared to death of any dentist. Thus a shrink was called in. She had never hasd a pyschotic moment in her life up till seeing that shrink and taking those medications.
Another thing which goes against all written info on General Anxiety Disorder is with this you practice avoidance or rather enviromental control with it and CBT will not help. I don't mean stay home and be agoraphobic by any means. I mean alter your life style and contol the offending triggers as much as possible like shopping at midnite rather than day time or early evenings. For me no TV except 1970's ear and older shows and cartoons. The special effects trigger attacks. This happened as well in Japan a few years back with a Poke-o-mon cartoon. Avoid such places crowded rooms with many persons talking at once. You will hear all and understand no one. If you are in such an enviroment due to holidays etc limit the times and exit the room to a quieter room often. Seek one on one conversations there and enjoy yourself. It's a different form of G.A.D. and is Non Phobic and non Traumatic in origin.
Here is an example if you are shopping in a store and the longer you stay there the more annoyed you become even to the point of simply walking out it's likely due to sensory bombardment from loud store speakers. Wal-mart is the absolute worse place for that. Driving on an interstate in heavy traffic the same thing. Here's a real good one. In the fall and winter driving through a wooded area and having sun light going through the trees say at 50 mph creating a strobing effect causing an attack. Some would avoid driving {develop a false phobia} as they connect driving to attacks. A good pair of Polaroid sunglasses works wonders even at night as head lights can be just as bad.
There is a research Neurologist/Shrink who in the late 1970's made the Vestibular connection to anxiety as well as some forms of Dyslexic symptoms, reading problems, what is now called C.A.P.D. {simuliar to ADD ADHD but not the same origin} and even TMJ. He began realizing his anxiety patients had a common medical history of diseases or disorders that effect the Inner Ear.
Actually let me clarify something. A kid showing ADD ADHD symptoms take them to an Audiologist for C.A.P.D. testing. Severe cases can be treated with mild antihistamines or motion sickness pills being the strongest needed medication needed. Give them Ritalin and they will only get worse and the shrink will most likely go to trying SSRI's. The doctors name is Harold Levinson. His book "Phobia Free" for sensory triggered anxiety IMO is a must read. The book titleis explained in the book. Most phobias related to this are not phobias but rather reactions to sensory issues. I have a fear of heights. My brain knows it. I stay off ladders and off roofs etc. I am terrified of them. Is it a true phobia? No. My brain knows I have balance issues and demands I stay away and stay safe.
That book gave me enough knowledge that I could understand what had happened to me. Levinson was scoffed at and mocked by mainstream mental health professionals. However Vestibular Researchers are validating a lot of his findings.
My Vestibular system wand sensory processing system was damaged early in life by chronic sinus allergies. Chronic ear infections can do the same thing. Most persons do not end up like me at least not as severe. I have Titinitus and Menieres now to go with it. Concentration is a short in supply commidity as well. It was so severe it triggered OCB. I was a maintenance mechanic and boiler operator before the severe onset 12 years ago. I started having problems with short term memory and concentration. As a result to compensate I checked and re-checked my work especially near the boilers. I was making mistakes. The more mistakes the more I re-checked myself even to the point of calling my relief when I got home from work to have him re-check the boiler line up. All of this caused by childhood allergies for which I took shots for.
Information on this type of anxiety didorder can not be found in mental health web venues. Go to Vestibular sites or search Vestibular Disorders +anxiety. No pharmacutical influence there either skewing the information. Audiologist can not prescribe meds :>}
The reason I keep posting on this is to help others with it and to get the word out on this so maybe one day Shrinks will wake up and smell the coffee. Here is the Serotonin Syndrome article I used BTW. Serotonin Syndrome: Recognition and Management
Oh it's ok now. No worries.
That her children weren't worthy of living?
That those lives taken aren't worth any punishment at all?
There is something seriously wrong with people who love the murderer and discount the murdered.
No offense, but you're not going to win many adherents to your brand of "conservatism" with incoherent posts like that. I prefer to trust the assessment of the mental health professionals who've independently evaluated her (one of whom, I know for a fact, is no bleeding heart liberal, not by a long shot) who have said this woman was the most disconnected from reality, most deeply delusional patients they'd ever seen, over the assessment of some guy spouting off about Ruth Bader Ginsburg's pets on an internet bulletin board.
These docs are not hired guns for the defense, these are some of the top practitoners in their field in the fourth largest city in the United States. They've seen many thousands of very sick puppies over their careers, and they agree that she was one of, if not the, most profoundly ill psychotics they'd ever come across.
I wonder if some of the self-proclaimed conservatives & Christians on this board would have some much blood lust today if Ms. Yates had had an epileptic seizure while driving and killed her children plowing into a telephone pole. Andrea Yates was as morally culpable for what she did to her children as somebody who accidentally sets his house on fire after falling into a diabetic coma while barbecuing. Her brain chemistry is so thoroughly out of whack that she qualifies for entry in one of those textbooks about medical anomalies, for heaven's sake.
Lest you continue to entertain your stated misconception that my beliefs on this issue are predicated on any sort of bleeding heart feminism, let me set you straight: none of us here are "excusing evil" as you claim; we merely believe that it would be neither as just nor as humane to "play God" & execute this woman as it would be to kill the man with cognitive judgement so completely distorted by a brain tumor that he shoots up his family.
The peversely viscious brand of conservative christianity some folks are peddling on this thread has absolutely no appeal to me, 'Luke21', and never will. The self-proclaimed "christians" on this board spewing nasty ad hominem invectives against other religious conservatives who happen to disagree with you guys are wasting your time with me. And for those (not you Luke - you had the guts and the integrity to challenge me to my face) who felt the need to send me private messages to inform me that I am the spawn of the devil & will writhe in the flames of eternal damnation for disagreeing with them on this issue: peace be with you, folks, peace be with you.
Question: If these same mental health professionals that you trust came back in a few years and said she was "cured" and that she could be released, how would you feel?
Serious question, I'm not baiting.
Becky
Bovine excrement. You should know that there are large numbers of us out here who will never accept the twaddle pushed by you people who have never met a criminal you could't coddle.
She committed premeditated murder five times. She was able to plan and execute that plan. There are offices with highly paid people in them that don't have the planning ability of Yates, and yet you maintain that she is so exceptionally mentally deranged she can't be held accountable? You might have a point if her insanity manifested itself in any other way than killing children. But it doesn't.
Insanity that is so narrowly defined it only affects one action isn't insanity it is a lie.
And these juries that let child killers walk: These moral dunces should not be allowed within 100 yards of a courtroom. They ought to be locked up with the killers they set free.
Wasn't bringing God into the picture. He may forgive murder, but there is still a debt to be paid. The karmic seeds planted by such an action will come to fruition in either this life or the next.
You raise a good question.
I did not know that. I thought my opinion of him couldn't get any lower, boy was I wrong.
BTW - did you see Tay Tay on Good Morning America on Friday?
No, I missed it!! :-( We are going to be in Nashville the same time as the AI concert and I am hoping for a TayTay sighting. :-D
"Not Guilty" by reason of the insanity of the jury!
One thing I have noticed about people (here and elsewhere) is that they all acknowledge that it's possible for someone to be legally insane...they just can't ever bring themselves to apply the term to a case.
I suspect it's because they are unable or unwilling to accept the ugliness and complexity that can come with mental illness.
Just saw in the story on the Houston Chronicle Web site that the jury foreman said they would have had a much easier, and quicker, time reaching a decision if they'd had the option of finding her "guilty but insane." As I said last night, maybe everyone needs to direct his energy toward getting that codified in law.
Excellent point! Guilty but insane option is needed.
I have always thought that deep down a large segement of the American people sympathize with Ms. Yates more than they did her little children.
I don't think it was medication. She was just that evil.
A few observations from having followed this thread from the start, and they're probably going to sound free association so if I ramble, I apologize in advance:
There seem to be a lot of folks who do not believe there should be any insanity defense at all, that no matter what the circumstances, people must be held accountable and responsible for their actions and there must be punishment/retribution/consequences whatever you want to call it for their actions in every circumstance, no exceptions. The thing is, other than in about three states (I think), the insanity defense is currently codified and accepted law. To have what these people want would require changing the law.
There seem to be a lot of folks ... and I am actually one of them ... who would favor a change to a "guilty but insane" scenario, where people are held legally responsible and accountable for the crimes they commit, but if there are legitimate mental illness questions involved, the person may not necessarily suffer the same level of punishment, consequences, etc., as in a case where there are no legitimate mental illness questions. To me it's a legitimate middle ground; others who feel that there must be harsh punishment in every case may have legitimate disagreements, and I accept that.
There seem to be a lot of folks who, either personally or with a family member, have experienced the hell of mental illness and, as such, see this case in a different light. I can appreciate and sympathize with what they've been through.
Some folks think Andrea has been faking mental illness from day 1 and is still faking now. I disagree and have seen no evidence to change my mind. If some comes out, I'll reassess that assessment and be here eating crow.
I posted a link last night to an 11-page discussion on the insanity defense from a Web site on crime. I highly recommend it for those who want to learn the history of the insanity defense, why we are where we are now.
I also mentioned afterward that in this discussion, it was pointed out just how rare a successful insanity defense is. It actually does not work very often. Very few people who plead not guilty by reason of insanity are successful.
So, what happened yesterday was, actually, an aberration and an exception, rather than the rule. However, I think this particular case is magnified by the circumstances involved and the fact that there were children involved, and there's a rather large group of folks out there who think that children are being treated as disposable and unimportant, etc., by society as a whole, as evidenced by the piece posted yesterday by that loon from Canada about how bored she was by her children and as such had as little interaction with them as possible.
And as far as Rusty Yates being evil, being culpable in what happened, etc. I don't know the man, I can't say that he's evil. He holds no direct responsibility in what Andrea did that day. However, every time I've seen the man on TV, I've gotten an uncomfortable feeling about him, and I continue to ask this question, if you have a wife who is showing signs of mental illness ... catatonia and ignoring her personal hygeine to the point where she had lice ... why do you keep planting your seed in her and why do you leave the kids alone with her? That simply does not compute in my mind.
Bottom line, since the DA has said that he's going to recommend that she not be tried on the other two deaths, and being that since "not guilty" is attached to the verdict, double jeopardy will prevent her from being tried again even if she got on national TV tomorrow and said "the mental illness was all a ruse, nanny-nanny-boo-boo," this case is over as far as the law is concerned; any other judgment will have to come before a significantly higher court. As I posted earlier, all this sound and fury might best be expended toward changing the laws that are in place, if the majority of folks out there are so inclined.
Comments?
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