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To: gafusa
Frankly Israel needs major work on their Navy. Tiny and light ships like the Saar are not enough.

Israel is a small county. They already spend 7.7% of their GDP into their millitary. More will be not possible except the US are buying them a aircraft carrier (sarcasm).

And only 3 tiny German subs? .... We should begin producing diesel electric subs, reviving the Barbel class has been proposed. Huge market, especially from Israel and Taiwan, who have difficulty getting them from the Europeans afraid they might offend the Chinazis or Muslims.

Just do it if you are able to. The problem might be that modern AIP systems and other stuff for D/E-subs needs decades to develop. Even such a advanced nation like the US can't do that in the short time those nations would need the backup.

BTW to your claim we would not back Israel because we are afraid to offend some Muslims - Germany did more for Israel than anybody else recently since we gave them the second-strike-abillity:

The former German chancellor Helmut Kohl decided to equip Israel with 2 new Dolphin Class submarines for free after realizing the eminent threat through Iraqi chemical weapons in the early 90ties. In 1995, Germany and Israel finalised an agreement for a third submarine, that was paid by half through Germany.

In the fall of 2005, Israel and Germany reached an agreement for the purchase of two additional submarines from Germany. One third of the 1 billion euro cost will be donated by Germany while the rest will be paid for by Israel. These boats are exptected to be similar to the advanced Type 214 or Type 212A submarines, modified to about 2,000 ton displacement and propelled by AIP systems. Press reports have also indicated that Israel is interested in outfitting its existing Dolphin fleet with AIP systems and other upgrades.

The Dolphin class is a non-nuclear type of submarine developed and constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW) for the Israeli Navy. It is the predecessor to and similar in design to the German Type 212 submarine. The Dolphin boats are considered to be some of the most sophisticated and capable conventional submarines in the world. Since the US have no modern conventional submarines in their production Israel is completely reliant on European deliveries, since they lack the technology and abilities to build such advanced equipment on their own.

The Dolphins are equipped with the nuclear armed Popeye Turbo cruise missle system. This gives Israel a nuclear second strike abillity against agressive countries like Pakistan, Iran or Syria and is a fundamental part of the security of Israel. It is the sure one way ticket to hell for all Mullahs who think that they could wipe out jews and judaism on this planet. More helpful than all unrealistic dreams about "beheading-strikes" with inapplicable Israeli planes in Iran or elsewhere.

The ships were by large parts a gift of Germany. Maybe we Europeans are not consent with every American or Israeli operation, but we try to be helpful.


98 posted on 07/15/2006 9:50:43 AM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum.)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Europe does have reservations about supporting Israel, although it does shift its position often. The new deliveries are largely because of the Conservatives taking power, the socialists would likely rested it. Besides while the Dolphin is a good sub, it is a small vessel designed for defense, which does not alleviate Israel's lack of offensive capability. 2 more will help though. Yes Israel is small, but their navy is by far the smallest service and receives little funding. Just one DDG would be a huge improvement. We could sell them one for a good price. I believe they should put the navy in higher priority. I do think we should get into the conventional sub market, as currently Europe and Russia have a virtual monopoly, and while it would take some time to build them, our submarine technology is the most advanced, and the Barbel, with some upgrades, should be be very competitive with modern designs, despite its age. Compared to the Dolphin could dive deeper, had far greater range (19,000 as opposed to 4,500 miles) and was even one knot faster, on engines from 1958! Plus the stealthy hull design. With new engines and electronics, and armed with Harpoon or Tomahawk, it could be a potent platform.
135 posted on 07/15/2006 11:40:23 AM PDT by gafusa
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Isn't HDW now owned by the US?

It is a shame that they won't build 6 of these for Taiwan.
210 posted on 07/17/2006 7:22:58 PM PDT by rmlew (I'm a Goldwater Republican... Don Goldwater 2006!)
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