Posted on 07/07/2006 12:59:52 PM PDT by The Lumster
I hate em, too.
But I hate about as much or worse the UnBiblical naysayers having a field day all to themselves with horrid viscious, unwarranted attacks against an honorable servant of our Precious Lord.
Great, as usual, Dear Bro.
However, Beware the experts on personal attacks. They seem to have written the manual--and dish out about 1,000,000,000 better than they can take anything even in the slight direction of such. All in the name of Christian love and truth, of course. /sar
And don't hold your breath expecting the Biblical facts about Rick to take root in some minds, hearts and spirits.
Well, he's all through the book. But I don't have time to do your homework for you.
Jesus IS in the OT, see the very first sentence, first statement of the bible:
Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning GOD made the heaven and the earth."
John 1:1-3: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I think PDL is okay for a starting point (for some, maybe not all), but it doesn't go very deep.
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I disagree about that. Even just the part you quoted will take someone about as deep as they want to go in Jesus. The truths Rick expounds on and structures in a very motivating way are sound Biblical truths. As such, they have layers upon layers of depth that Holy Spirit can keep plumbing the rest of a person's life.
Sure, anything can be responded to in a fad, shallow way--even Scripture as we see in thousands of churches every Sunday.
Y'all miss the smilie face and obviously the sarcasm.
The phrase "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel" comes to mind.
I sure hope you didn't bet your life savings on that because you were broke before the electrons hit my screen. (I was going to say before the ink was dry. heh heh).
Not everyone is called to go out on the street or speak at crusades, but many, many of us are called to be witnessing to our neighbors, our friends, our relatives where often the risk is much much greater. I don't think you really thought about what you were saying when you posted that. From my experience, much more people that I know that understand Warren's gospel to be a false gospel have brought the good news of the true kingdom than those who are fans of Warren's.
I simply meant that PDL is not the best source to go deeper. That's all.
Your reply didn't surprise me at all. :)
I Corithians 14 tells it like it is.
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Perhaps you'd be willing to tell me when you last attended a church gathering wherein the following verses were applied in a Biblical fashion from I Cor 14 (PARTICULARLY VERSES 26-35)
And if you haven't been in such a meeting . . . where each one brought what God had laid on their heart; where the group discerned whether prophetic utterances and interpretations of tongues were Biblical and fitting, Spirit-breathed, or not . . . why haven't you? I realize they are hard to find.
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1 Corinthians 14 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
1 Corinthians 14
Prayer Language
1-3Go after a life of love as if your life depended on it—because it does. Give yourselves to the gifts God gives you. Most of all, try to proclaim his truth. If you praise him in the private language of tongues, God understands you but no one else does, for you are sharing intimacies just between you and him. But when you proclaim his truth in everyday speech, you're letting others in on the truth so that they can grow and be strong and experience his presence with you.
4-5The one who prays using a private "prayer language" certainly gets a lot out of it, but proclaiming God's truth to the church in its common language brings the whole church into growth and strength. I want all of you to develop intimacies with God in prayer, but please don't stop with that. Go on and proclaim his clear truth to others. It's more important that everyone have access to the knowledge and love of God in language everyone understands than that you go off and cultivate God's presence in a mysterious prayer language—unless, of course, there is someone who can interpret what you are saying for the benefit of all.
6-8Think, friends: If I come to you and all I do is pray privately to God in a way only he can understand, what are you going to get out of that? If I don't address you plainly with some insight or truth or proclamation or teaching, what help am I to you? If musical instruments—flutes, say, or harps—aren't played so that each note is distinct and in tune, how will anyone be able to catch the melody and enjoy the music? If the trumpet call can't be distinguished, will anyone show up for the battle?
9-12So if you speak in a way no one can understand, what's the point of opening your mouth? There are many languages in the world and they all mean something to someone. But if I don't understand the language, it's not going to do me much good. It's no different with you. Since you're so eager to participate in what God is doing, why don't you concentrate on doing what helps everyone in the church?
13-17So, when you pray in your private prayer language, don't hoard the experience for yourself. Pray for the insight and ability to bring others into that intimacy. If I pray in tongues, my spirit prays but my mind lies fallow, and all that intelligence is wasted. So what's the solution? The answer is simple enough. Do both. I should be spiritually free and expressive as I pray, but I should also be thoughtful and mindful as I pray. I should sing with my spirit, and sing with my mind. If you give a blessing using your private prayer language, which no one else understands, how can some outsider who has just shown up and has no idea what's going on know when to say "Amen"? Your blessing might be beautiful, but you have very effectively cut that person out of it.
18-19I'm grateful to God for the gift of praying in tongues that he gives us for praising him, which leads to wonderful intimacies we enjoy with him. I enter into this as much or more than any of you. But when I'm in a church assembled for worship, I'd rather say five words that everyone can understand and learn from than say ten thousand that sound to others like gibberish.
20-25To be perfectly frank, I'm getting exasperated with your infantile thinking. How long before you grow up and use your head—your adult head? It's all right to have a childlike unfamiliarity with evil; a simple no is all that's needed there. But there's far more to saying yes to something. Only mature and well-exercised intelligence can save you from falling into gullibility. It's written in Scripture that God said,
In strange tongues and from the mouths of strangers I will preach to this people, but they'll neither listen nor believe.
So where does it get you, all this speaking in tongues no one understands? It doesn't help believers, and it only gives unbelievers something to gawk at. Plain truth-speaking, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart of believers and doesn't get in the way of unbelievers. If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you're all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won't they assume you've taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can? But if some unbelieving outsiders walk in on a service where people are speaking out God's truth, the plain words will bring them up against the truth and probe their hearts. Before you know it, they're going to be on their faces before God, recognizing that God is among you.
34-36Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God's Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking. Do you—both women and men—imagine that you're a sacred oracle determining what's right and wrong? Do you think everything revolves around you?
37-38If any one of you thinks God has something for you to say or has inspired you to do something, pay close attention to what I have written. This is the way the Master wants it. If you won't play by these rules, God can't use you. Sorry.
39-40Three things, then, to sum this up: When you speak forth God's truth, speak your heart out. Don't tell people how they should or shouldn't pray when they're praying in tongues that you don't understand. Be courteous and considerate in everything.
AMPLIFIED VERSION:
18I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together;
26What then, brethren, is [the right course]? When you meet together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a disclosure of special knowledge or information, an utterance in a [strange] tongue, or an interpretation of it. [But] let everything be constructive and edifying and for the good of all.
27If some speak in a [strange] tongue, let the number be limited to two or at the most three, and each one [taking his] turn, and let one interpret and explain [what is said].
28But if there is no one to do the interpreting, let each of them keep still in church and talk to himself and to God.
29So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.
30But if an inspired revelation comes to another who is sitting by, then let the first one be silent.
31For in this way you can give testimony [prophesying and thus interpreting the divine will and purpose] one by one, so that all may be instructed and all may be stimulated and encouraged;
32For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker's control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary],
Lupie is absolutly right. See also my 153.
Care to refute what we are saying with Scripture? Seems only fair since we are using Scripture to prove our point.
I didn't say either one of you were wrong. I said you missed the sarcasm.
Apparently you missed that point as well.
I'm ducking out here... life's too short to strain at gnats.
So you posted all that...for what purpose? What does Rick Warren teach? What does he believe? He is the subject of the discussion.
The life savings I have is Jesus! All material things came from Him, and what He has Blessed me to use belongs to Him. He can add to, or take it all away in a heartbeat, so I chose to store up my treasure in Heaven. :o)
Not everyone is called to go out on the street or speak at crusades, but many, many of us are called to be witnessing to our neighbors, our friends, our relatives where often the risk is much much greater.
When Jesus told us to go into the world and preach the good news, His commandment was to ALL of us. I didn't read the part that said some followers only have to witness to their loved ones, or their friends, and once that was done, they were excused from witnessing to the world. Did I miss a verse of Scripture? Btw, the greatest witness we can give to our family and friends is through our changed lives.
I don't think you really thought about what you were saying when you posted that.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course I did. I knew exactly what I was saying.
From my experience, much more people that I know that understand Warren's gospel to be a false gospel have brought the good news of the true kingdom than those who are fans of Warren's.
Exactly what is your experience? Warren has led thousands, upon thousands of people into the Kingdom, through his obedience to God. I don't think any of us have brought more people into the Kingdom than he has. You know, he started just like you and your friends did. Just like I did. We all have witnessed to our loved ones because we want them to be saved. It's harder to witness to family and friends than it is to witness to strangers. The difference in Warren and you guys, is that he's continuing to take the Gospel to the streets. He has a heart for the lost and he wants everyone saved.
I want you to tell me EXACTLY what Warren's "false gospel" is, that you have had experience with? I know someone who goes to his church and he IS a spirit filled Christian. He really like Warren. I know some people who have read his book and said it changed their lives. It brought them into a closer relationship with Jesus. How can that be false? You keep talking about his false gospel, and I would like for you to back it up with proof! What is the false doctrine he teaches? What is your proof?
Perhaps Ginko Bilboa could be of use.
Perhaps you've forgotten that
YOU BROUGHT UP 1 COR 14.
And, YOU declined to answer a very straight forward question related to the very Scriptures you tossed out.
Cute. Real cute.
Evidently because it was inconvenient to your . . . uhhhh . . . construction on Biblical truths.
I don't need to answer it, I take it for what is says literally. I don't need any talking head marketing guru to explain it to me. You were the one who asked about everyone praying at the same time.
Have you ever been a member of his congregation, listening to him preach the Word week after week?
I have. For several years. And I completely reject your charactization of him.
To which I replied: I sure hope you didn't bet your life savings on that because you were broke before the electrons hit my screen.
And you answered that with saying your life savings is in Jesus. Although I know very well what you mean, it had nothing to do with your serious charge that those who oppose Warren don't evangalize. It seemed to be sidestepping the issue to me. By your own words, you are wrong if even ONE person who opposes Warren has evangalized elsewhere. And you are the one who "bet" on it, not me.
We are called, we are commanded to preach the good news to those He sends to us and to those He sends us to who are of the world. Some of them are next door, some in our businesses, some in our family, some are across the world. Not everyone is called to go across the world. It does not make them better or worse in God's eyes. Not even all of the apostles went throughout the world as Paul did, yet they were not better or no less obedient or greater or lesser in God's eyes. Neither is anyone who serves the Lord and goes where He commands and leads.
Not everyone is called to go out on the street or speak at crusades, but many, many of us are called to be witnessing to our neighbors, our friends, our relatives where often the risk is much much greater. I don't think you really thought about what you were saying when you posted that. From my experience, much more people that I know that understand Warren's gospel to be a false gospel have brought the good news of the true kingdom than those who are fans of Warren's.
...You keep talking about his false gospel, and I would like for you to back it up with proof! What is the false doctrine he teaches? What is your proof?
If you are really interested, here are several links to sites that very solidly refute his "gospel", for those who care to let the Lord open their eyes. One of them also has articles in favor or Warren. :)
Redefining Christianity
Critical Issues Commentary
Apologetics Index of pro and con articles
Deception in the Church list of Warren articles Description
You're replying to the wrong person.
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