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To: stands2reason
ArGee: I'm not sure of your point. In your opinion what is morality based upon?

stands2reason: Upon whether there is a God or not.

Good answer. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it's based upon whether G-d Himself is moral? Or, more clearly, that G-d has declared what is right and what is wrong, and by His moral character has shown Himself to be a valid source?

I would propose that the entire story of Adam and Eve and the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is about just this question. Is morality something that man can know on his own? Has he the ability to know all possible ramifications of a decision to know whether it will result in good or evil? Can he, as Gandalf suggested, know all ends? Or is he dependent on a good, all-knowing Creator to tell him what is good and what is evil?

By eating of the fruit, Adam and Eve declared they could figure it out for themselves. G-d allowed them to make that choice, and in so doing they destroyed paradise.

But I believe this to be true because I believe G-d exists, that G-d created this universe and all that is in it, and that the Bible tells the story of G-d's relationship to Man.

If G-d does not exist, if G-d did not create this universe, if it is all an accident, then there is no morality. In that case, the Bible is an interesting book, but no more able to help us know how we should treat each other than our gut instincts.

This is why I say "If man is an accident then it doesn't matter how we treat each other."

I hope I have been clear about what I believe.

Shalom.

215 posted on 07/01/2006 6:26:06 PM PDT by ArGee (The Ring must not be allowed to fall into Hillary's hands!)
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To: ArGee
"If G-d does not exist, if G-d did not create this universe, if it is all an accident, then there is no morality. In that case, the Bible is an interesting book, but no more able to help us know how we should treat each other than our gut instincts.

Sorry to butt in but this statement intrigues me.

It sounds like you are saying that since God is the source of all morals the only thing standing in the way of humans acting like base animals (not to mention that there are animals that don't always 'act like animals') is the fear of whatever consequences God arranges for those that disobey, or in some way God 'controls' the actions of those that believe. Even though you didn't say this explicitly, that is the implication of your statement.

Contrary to what most believers desire - that humans are essentially not animals but a special creation made in the image of God, this worry of yours is an implicit acknowledgment of our origin as just another animal.

"This is why I say "If man is an accident then it doesn't matter how we treat each other."

Except that along with all the other evolutionary changes wrought in the human being is the act of selfless cooperation and community. Without a belief in God, many of the same morals and sense of right and wrong would accompany every community built by humans. All humans in all communities, including those we would consider extremely primitive have a set of moral actions that are part and parcel of their culture. The majority of the morals we attend to in our culture is a direct result of the size and complexity of our culture and would have developed even if God wasn't a part of the population's psyche. (Every culture, including the Christian culture has had times where other humans have suffered at the hands of the adherents as well as times of peace and enlightenment)

300 posted on 07/01/2006 8:41:34 PM PDT by b_sharp (There is always one more mess to clean up.)
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