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To: spintreebob
Exactly, Spintreebob.

The Libertarian dogma applies to the rights of the Individual. The watershed is if one believes the fetus to be a person, in which case the full weight of the State should be used to protect it's rights, or a inanimate blob, in which case it's nobody's damn business what anyone else does with it. On that many Libertarians disagree, just like most of the rest of the country. Neither the 'every sperm is sacred' crowd OR the 'slice and dice while the mother is in contractions' crowd will ever be pleased with anything other than complete capitulation to their viewpoints in my observation; it is impossible to have any rational communication with somebody who believes that an egg fertilized a second ago is a human being with all rights and privileges thereunto; or with someone who can sleep after seeing life that could have survived outside of the womb destroyed. So I haven't a clue myself WRT abortion - I wouldn't let my wife or child have one is about all I can say. I doubt there will ever be a consensus.

I think that for Libertarians Guns are even more important that the right to dope (there is no such 'right', of course - it is that the State has no right to make it illegal; in fact the State (be it federal, state or local should have no rights not enumerated in the Constitution IMHO, but then I would have told Moses to go back up and try to get Him down to four or five).

But both guns and drugs are highly symbolic, a line in the sand and litmus test to sift out those who believe in freedom as long as you agree with them (be they of the left or the right) as opposed to those who actually understand the underlying principle which is it's nobody's business and the State shouldn't have the authority to regulate the possession, only use with impinges on the rights of others. FWIW I'm working on a vanity about the 'creative tension' that actually helps power the conservative movement; the tension between the Christian Moralist strain and the Libertarian strain in the conservative movement. Libertarians need to remember that it is and was those who believe in God who first conceptualized and fought for the rights of the individual, the moralists should realize that all great horrors in history have been wrought by those who were convinced that God, or History were on their side.
167 posted on 06/29/2006 6:37:03 AM PDT by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: RedStateRocker
Libertarians need to remember that it is and was those who believe in God who first conceptualized and fought for the rights of the individual,

Sounds like you believe that L/libertarians are atheists or agnostics. Undoubtedly some are, but so are some Democrats and Republicans.

Being a L/libertarian no more makes one an atheist or agnostic than being a R/republican or a Christian makes one moralist.

168 posted on 06/29/2006 7:12:09 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: RedStateRocker

I wish you well with your thesis. As a coalition builder, I agree that the tension is good.

Most of us are not "pure" libertarians in either theory or life. Many alleged libertarians hold one or two non-libertarian views. And my non-libertarians hold one or two libertarian views that are not conservative.

And in practice, we often practice NIMBY or some other inconsistency. Some libertarians in my neighborhood are against government regulation but want to use the zoning and builing code to tell a neighbor what he can and cannot do with his private property in matters that in no way impact public health or safety and in no way present a nuisance. For example, they object to a business in the home such as an internet or phone business that they would not even know exists if they weren't told about it. And they oppose it because a business in a residential area allegedly lowers their property values.

I'll try to find time to send you my claim to "Christian libertarianism" which is a spinoff of DeTouqueville.


173 posted on 06/29/2006 4:15:57 PM PDT by spintreebob
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