Understanding Islam: The Verse of The Sword (Great Read!)

Family Security Foundation ^ | 6/22/06 | Scott McKay

[eleni121]

This may help you:

Quran 9:4

You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.

PRECEDES

Qu’ran, 9:5

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the jizya (poor-due), then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[eleni121]

"...slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them..."

No "THEN"

By adding "then" you change the meaning. Have any idea why you added "then"?

[RS]

Thanks -

this is a PERFECT example of the errors on the PROFITofDoom site ... it's NOT Quran 9:4

( you can check it for yourself elsewhere on YOUR Profit's site here - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 )

[eleni121]

NO errors....The one I provided was from another site but is essentially the same...there are different ways of saying essentially the same thing...doncha know that?

The prophet of doom site you reference is excellent! On this page are the varying translations of the verse in question:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009

[RS]

"The prophet of doom site you reference is excellent! On this page are the varying translations of the verse in question:"

Yep - If you dig in a pile, you might find gold - the resouces this PROFITofDoom lists are easy to get to.

Where did you get your wrong citation of 9:4 ? ( many sites have copied this PROFIT's words as if they were handed from God on tablets )

... and did you find any difference now that you've read the correct one ?

[eleni121]

Not wrong...just a different translation of the same bunk.

[Lewite]

For another fine article (38 pages) go to yourarmstoisrael.org and select "sermon notes" and pull up "The Final End Time Beast". I have also read "the Prophet of Doom" writings and recommend them.

[RS]

Nope wrong ... NO translation of the Koran that I have found shows this - are you suggesting that ALL these translations are so far off the beam on 9:4 ?


The PROFITofDoom appears to have created this by severely editing the translations of 9:2, but no matter, it's wrong calling it 9:4 and in doing so, conviently ignores the true impact of 9:4 on 9:5.

[anglian]

The PROFITofDoom appears to have created this by severely editing the translations of 9:2,

PROFETOFFDOOM.net - Qur’an 9:2 “You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame.”

USC version: 009.002,

YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[anglian]

Here's some more quotes if u want to double check. http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405

[RS]

Yep - you posted what I found - so ?

Would you care to get back to the original discussion of 9:4 being needed if you wish to understand 9:5 ?

... now that we can find the CORRECT 9:4

[anglian]

Profetofdoom: You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.RS- Nope wrong ... NO translation of the Koran that I have found shows this

Guess you didn't look very hard.

009.003

YUSUFALI: If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL: So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

SHAKIR: it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[RS]

Even better ... good job !

So do we agree now that the 9:4 "quote" is an error ?

If so, we can dispense with the wrong quote issue and get back on track -

Does the REAL 9:4 modify 9:5 ?

[anglian]

this is a PERFECT example of the errors on the PROFITofDoom site ... it's NOT Quran 9:4

Did the poster show it was?

9:4.

AA Except those idolaters with whom you have a treaty, who have not failed you in the least, nor helped anyone against you. Fulfil your obligations to them during the term (of the treaty). God loves those who take heed for themselves.

NQ Except those of the Mushrikûn with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allâh loves Al- Mattaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

PK Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

SH Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

YU (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Source - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 Quran 009.004

YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[RS]

? see post 21 and

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4514


But in any case -

9:4 specifically shows that a treaty CAN be made with the idolaters, and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.

[Charles Martel]

9:4 specifically shows that a treaty CAN be made with the idolaters, and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.

Treaties, hmm? I wonder what the terms of such a treaty would be. I also wonder whether there are actually any non-Muslims who currently enjoy the forebearance commanded by 9:4.

Can you list any examples of non-Islamic peoples with whom Islam is *not* at war? Let me be clear... I'm not talking about the people who are currently (and fortunately) being ignored by the militant Muslims, but rather those with whom some sort of peace agreement has been formalized. Does any such relationship exist, anywhere on the planet?

[Fred Nerks]

9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.

----

LOL! Was mohammad EVER at peace with ANYONE?

[anglian]

-and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

LOL

Qur’an 009.003 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.” In other words, Allah and Muhammad can't be trusted.

[anglian]

Sorry it is 009.001

YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances

PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[Fred Nerks]

The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.

The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non-Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?


http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html