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Episcopalians refuse affirmation of Christ
Virtue Online ^ | June 20, 2006 | Hans Zeiger

Posted on 06/21/2006 5:15:34 AM PDT by MountainMenace

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To: meandog
was it "divine inspiration sparked the inquisition? The Dark Ages? Ignorance that led to burning of witches

No, it was sin.

the resistance of scientific thought?

IF you are referring to evolution, we should resist anything that opposes the Word of God.

Christ, IMHO, taught forgiveness as a way to salvation

His Blood, the cross, is the only way to salvation. We didn't deserve it and we can do nothing to achieve salvation except believe that Jesus is Who He says He is - Our Savior. Then because we love Him for He loved us first, our life is now His - He bought us with a price! We now serve Him, following Him according to His Word.

made the love of God personal to all mankind (even repentant Muslims that depart from Mohammad's Islamic hate and violence).

Absolutely, I totally agree with you! He died for ALL; unfortunately, not all receive Him.
241 posted on 06/21/2006 11:57:22 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: SoothingDave

Where have I insulted you?

read your own posts from the start.


242 posted on 06/21/2006 11:59:04 AM PDT by Veeram (why the does the left HATE America ?)
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To: Veeram
Well, since he was about to DIE and shed His BLOOD and become the SAVIOR of the world as a SACRIFICE for all our sins, then what else could he be talking about ? Not about changing bread into himself.

You assume that He could not have been linking the two? The words "This is my body" mean something different than "This symbolicly represents my body."

Not if that is what Christ did, and if that is what He tasked the Apostles with doing.

He said "do this in MEMORY of Me", not do this and then claim you have turned this peice of bread into Me, so others may receive me through this coverted bread.

He said do "this." That's what we do and the earliest records of the Church in history reflect that the earliest Christians understood "this" to be more than a symbol.

We do what Jesus did and what He told us to do. It's really that simple.

If you actually read the New Testament, you'll see Jesus uses symbolism and parables a lot and it would not make sense for Him to do this often, except for this one occasion and then not fully explain it

Again, it is a fallacy to assume that because Jesus spoke in parables and symbols that nothing He said was meant to be taken any other way. You don't really believe that, do you? Jesus spoke the plain truth many times.

As for your suggestion that He did not explain it, that is unfounded as well. Jesus gave the Bread of Life discourse and painfully explained that He was truly flesh to eat. People walked away from Him that day and He did not correct them, calling them back that it was a big misunderstanding, that He was talking in symbols.

The Apostles stuck with Him in faith, and at the Last Supper saw how He was to make this so. And after the Resurrection, to suggest that Jesus didn't explain anything to His followers is ridiculous.

SD

243 posted on 06/21/2006 12:05:55 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Veeram
read your own posts from the start.

You can't point to anything? Did my use of the word "ignorance" bother you? I meant it not as an insult, but in the true sense of the word. You don't know what you are talking about. That's ignorance. It's curable.

I'm sorry if you take offense to that.

SD

244 posted on 06/21/2006 12:07:56 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Veeram
He said "do this in MEMORY of Me", not do this and then claim you have turned this peice of bread into Me

The key to understanding the phrase "do this in memory of me," is to consider the Jewish understanding of the Seder meal. Jews (like Christ was) believe that the Passover is not simply remembered at the Seder meal, but is actually made present. Similarly, the Crucifixion is made present in the Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," not simply remembered.

This is why Paul can say:

1 Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.


245 posted on 06/21/2006 12:08:21 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: reagan_fanatic
How do Episcopalians reconcile that belief with what the Bible says about it: Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)

I would posit that a large number of Episcopalians have never read the Bible. It was never stressed in Sunday school when I was growing up. I am an Episcopalian and stopped going to church a long time ago because I could see the direction the church was taking. Instead, I am reading the Bible on my own and feel much closer to Christianity than I ever did growing up and going to church every week.
246 posted on 06/21/2006 12:08:38 PM PDT by piperpilot
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To: pageonetoo
In one "christian" denomination, a man sit on a throne in a foreign city, and tells all other members of his church he is without error, and they accept his tomes. They are constantly assured they are the true church. If God's line is busy, you can always call His mother for to help your absolution. You can also get prayed into heaven with candles, apparently, while you sit somehwere in the middle, when your physical life ends. Membership is required, to get a pass.

Your flippant and trite description of the RCC shows you know little to nothing of the roots of the faith founded by Christ Jesus. Get it through your head, Christ is not your shrink, He is God. He set some rules. Rules that are not to be interpreted however you see fit. If that were the case, then what is the point at all? Give this a read before you presume to belittle the Church founded by Christ for your "buddy Jesus" you seem to be so fond of.

247 posted on 06/21/2006 12:21:14 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: pageonetoo

Forgot the link. Here you go: http://www.drbo.org/church.htm


248 posted on 06/21/2006 12:22:11 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: meandog

those who have not known Jesus can still be saved



how does that work? So Adolf and Lenin can still be saved...interesting. Tell me how.


249 posted on 06/21/2006 12:24:43 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: SoothingDave
Are we Discussing what we believe or what a Aborigine can believe and still go to heaven. You seem to claim that if an Aborigine was prompted by God to believe in him and that he remained open to the leading of the Holy Spirit then he would receive salvation from God right then and there and I say that if the above were true Then The Holy Spirit would lead him to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and then he would be saved. Without Jesus you cannot be saved because if your scenario were correct for the Aborigine then why not the same for everyone, then why did Jesus come and die why didn't Father let that cup pass from him if there were another way to be saved?.that is why I say that the Holy Spirit would cause events to happen that would lead a person a Aborigine in this case to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
As I said earlier I am not a Biblical Scholar in any way I don't know the spiritual fate of everyone whoever lived whether on a tiny pacific atoll or in the middle of the bible belt in fact I don't care about reducing salvation to it's least common denominator I have to deal with what I know and where I am that is my least common denominator.
to be honest this rabbit hole has no place to go.
250 posted on 06/21/2006 12:25:36 PM PDT by Texas Patriot (Remember.... The Alamo, never forget HOORAHH!!!!!)
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To: pageonetoo
There is only one way to restore the ties, to gain eternity with Him, and that is through faith in Jesus, not His church!

Then why did Christ create what He Himself called the "church?"

251 posted on 06/21/2006 12:28:07 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: nanetteclaret

Are you saying that Pope Benedict is Peter's equal?


252 posted on 06/21/2006 12:28:10 PM PDT by RightFighter
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To: jongaltsr

"Not being a Christian explains your idea that there are many paths to God. There is only (one) way. If you don't know that by now there is only the hope that you will wake up and relearn "what the requirement are for redemption" and "who" God accepts."

I'll pray for the God of my understanding to soften your heart.


253 posted on 06/21/2006 12:30:29 PM PDT by Stashiu (RVN, 1969-70)
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To: randita
These old churches will be nothing but stones around the corporation's neck.

Don't underestimate the creativity of the interior decorators who are taking over TEC(The Episcopal Church, their new official name). Add some ferns, a gourmet kitchen, a few massage tables and some hot tubs, and you have a very toney urban 'members only' bath-house.

254 posted on 06/21/2006 12:35:42 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: ichabod1

Somebody has lost their mind.

Obviously the teachings of the Bible mean nothing to these people.


255 posted on 06/21/2006 12:36:11 PM PDT by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: Veeram

Luther added the word "alone" and challenged anyone to go against him. Faith "alone" is not true to the original texts.


256 posted on 06/21/2006 12:37:47 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: Obadiah
I don't have to form "my own" opinion. They are apostates. They are accursed.

Wouldn't want to be them. Rather helps a future anti-Christ out, though.

257 posted on 06/21/2006 12:37:49 PM PDT by madison10
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To: Texas Patriot
You seem to claim that if an Aborigine was prompted by God to believe in him and that he remained open to the leading of the Holy Spirit then he would receive salvation from God right then and there and I say that if the above were true Then The Holy Spirit would lead him to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and then he would be saved.

Yes, that is an accurate statement of our two beliefs.

Which is why I asked originally if we were saved because of our knowledge of Christ, or because of the actions of Christ.

Without Jesus you cannot be saved because if your scenario were correct for the Aborigine then why not the same for everyone, then why did Jesus come and die why didn't Father let that cup pass from him if there were another way to be saved?.that is why I say that the Holy Spirit would cause events to happen that would lead a person a Aborigine in this case to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Well, I think if, as we said, someone was "prompted by God to believe" and "open to the leading of the Holy Spirit" that this person has only been able to do this because of Jesus and His work on the Cross. Whether he knows this or not.

Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for men to be saved. We all agree on that. If Jesus didn't die, the Aborigine or the American could not be saved. It's the necessary thing.

The question is how this salvation comes about. Is it because we understand something, or is it because God selects us and moves us?

Another thing I think you are missing is that with knowledge of Christ we are in a much more favorable position than the bushman is. No one is suggesting that all people in all places are automatically saved and that Jesus was unnecessary.

The question is, can God save someone who is ignorant of Jesus? I don't see why He can not. The salvation is made possible through Jesus and through the gift of grace His Sacrifice made possible. And through the Holy Spirit Jesus sent.

Would I rather be a Christian living with access to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible and the sacraments?

You bet.

Would it bother me if God, for His own purposes, place the Holy Spirit in a hopelessly ignorant Aborigine and guides that soul to salvation?

Not at all. It's still Jesus doing the work. Just like Jesus saves an infant who doesn't know any better to call out His name.

SD

258 posted on 06/21/2006 12:38:22 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RightFighter

St. Peter was given authority to bind and loose on Heaven and Earth. The office of the Pope is no threat, indeed the only threat it could pose is to people twisting Scripture to fit what they want it to mean as opposed to what it really means. Obviously Christ had faith in this office, why don't you?


259 posted on 06/21/2006 12:39:36 PM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: MountainMenace

What? These 'piscoplians have gone barmy.


260 posted on 06/21/2006 12:39:42 PM PDT by Palladin ("Governor Lynn Swann."...it has a nice ring to it!)
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