No we are as opposite as night and day actually. I am not antiwar and NOTHING I have posted states such. I was not anti-taking out Saddam & company and NOTHING I have posted states such. Let me set you straight on something right here and now. We are in Iraq thanks to the mistake of a Republican POTUS made in the mid-1970's. Jerry Ford told the thug dictators of the world they had nothing to fear by supporting terrorist groups. He signed an E.O. protecting them from the threat od death via covert action Look at the rise in terrorism from that point on. Up till then such scum were only threats to their own nations..
Asking for a clearly defined MILITARY objective in Iraq and and end to the humanitarian mission is not Murtha by any means. My thinking is along the lines of the founders and military leaders through WW2 who understood what war actually meant. War is a punishment/judgment what part of that do you not understand? How can it be made more clear to you?
The problem is. We have two choices. 1. Find a way to bring the World of Islam into the 20th century, with values like peace, freedom and democracy (or) 2. Be prepared to kill Muslims by the Million.
I got a news flash for you. Option number 2 will happen and there is not one thing you, me, or the tooth fairy can do to stop it. The one who promises peace in the Middle East especially a peace including Israel will be short lived. It will be wrong. It will be a war unlike any war known to man or will ever known to mankind again.
IslamoFacism is intent on Global Domination by force of arms. It is propelled by core commands in the Koran that if interpreted the way these people do, encourages the true believer to die in the service of accomplishing this goal by any means possible. And, if Islam is completely incompatible with Freedom and Democracy, then if we let these people win, the world would be much like the middle east, a twist of suffering and evil. Imagine the US ruled by the Taliban. Your children enslaved and corrupted by these people. Its hard to imagine anything worse since the antics of Hitler or the Communists. We are fighting pure evil
Which is why you will not hear such stupidity as road map to peace come from me. I'll tell you what this is. This is a jealousy that has been in existence since Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac. It is that old. It is as old as Esau who sold his birthright to Jacob {Israel}. And you think we can eliminate it buy rebuilding Arabic cites while at the same time being at war with them? Look at what I post I said put them back to a 1950's level. For them I could have said to a 1000 BC level and it would mean the same. If you have no weapons, no communications, etc then how can you be a threat? Hardly Murtha now is it? I wrote take out their leadership by military covert means now does that sound like Murtha?
Yet, these people are humans and its our obligation to attempt to save these people, and avoid the horror of a real "direct" confrontation where religion becomes the sorting factor. This is the death of so much WE hold dear. Our values and hopes and dreams for a peaceful world where humans live in dignity and self-determination depend on these Iraqi's being able to find a better life.
Now you sound like Murtha and classic Liberals in congress. It is not our {OBLIGATION} to save our enemy it is our job to destroy them. That is what WAR is all about. You go to war to kill. You go to war to destroy an enemy even if it is down to the last standing person unless they unconditionally surrender. If you can't believe in that cost of war then don't go there. Weigh it's cost BEFORE the act. Do not question the actions of the ones then asked or sent to fight such a war. You want things both ways and they can not co-exist. You want the threat destroyed and you want warriors being the Peace Corp REWARDING THOSE NATIONS WHO ALLOWED THESE TYRANTS TO EXIST AS THEIR LEADERS TO BEGIN WITH.
The Japanese and the German people have shown that they are not inherently evil. In fact, our generosity and willingness to sacrifice for their freedom and dignity has paid dividends that were unimaginable at the time.
There is but one Japan culture and nation the same with Germany. By reading what you have posted I see you have little understanding of Arabic history. It is tribal. The hate is tribal. No less than three likely more major tribes in Iraq hate each others guts. All three have one thing in common. They hate us as much as they do each other. Any two M.E. nations fighting each other today with the exception of Israel would unite tomorrow to fight the U.S. That is the reality. Morally and Biblically we have but one true obligation in the M.E. and that is an alliance with Israel. Our nations future depends on our support to them and not our action as such or friendships with their enemy. Now is that Murtha doctrine?
When Germany surrendered it ended the war the same with Japan. If you do not realize the vast cultural difference between those nations and Arabic nation s and tribes you are in for one BIG SURPRISE. There will be no peace in the Middle East except a short false one given by the anti-Christ who deceives the world by promising Peace through a brokered agreement with those nations including Israel. Does Murtha say that?
I'm not worried about it. I know the outcome. They will loose. It will not be the United States of America who wins that ultimate war. Nor will the United States be the leader in the one who brings victory in that war.
War is hell and knows no innocents. It has been that way for mans history. You want the definition and moral absolutes of war? Read about Joshua. Read about helping an enemy and letting them prosper. Read about those dangers. They are lessons learned the hard way. We have not fought Korea, Nam, nor the Gulf Wars with the principles of war our founders and leadership up through WW2 understood. WE did not fight WW2 to win over the hearts of Japan and Germany. WE fought to punish them until the will to fight was no more. The will to fight is still very much alive in Iraq. Rebuilding their nation while this will is alive to me is insanity and working against the very ones we ask in the name of the Unites States to go there, fight and possibly die. What part of the ones they help in the day time will be the ones shooting at them at night do you not yet understand? Is that Murtha? Murtha like you embraces these people.
War is not a charity drive nor an act of diplomacy. It is an absolute act of the elimination of an enemy via bloodshed including the nations people and anything less is immoral. War is a judgment of a nation. The Bible clearly states it as does history. Do you have the stomach for it? You sound like LBJ to me. Go there troops and fight in the name of the United States but first I have this here list of rules of engagement I want you men to read and go by first so we don't hurt them folk. Enough of it! Your way the kinder gentler war way cost us three wars!
Your way ties the hands of the ones sent to war. It unnecessarily places them at higher risk. It extends the war by likely decades in what should have taken months. You want to re-build Iraq? Fine go there and see how well they like you. In the mean time we have troops being ambushed and shot at and I say intie their hands and let them do their job and be done with it. Keep the stinking Diplomats out of it. Achieve a military goal ASAP, declare the victory, and give the troops a huge well deserved welcome home and rest they deserve.
Oh I want to go into this deeper. Is Murtha calling for a significant raise in our permenant active duty military? I do and have done so in my whole time here. You explain to me why Bush, the GOP congress, and Clown Rummy of Ford, have not called for and raised the End Troop Strength levels we have operated under since Clintons term 1996? A troll? Me? LOL Lookm in the mirror and you'll likely find one and a NWO shill as well. I supprt out troops 100% unconditionally that includes them doing whatever steps they see as necessary to preserve their own lives, the lives of their fellow troops, and their own saftey. If it means killing families they see as threats to them then so be it. Is that Murtha? Or is Murtha just a Boggieman name you were taught to use? I loathe Murtha but you are a lot closer to Murtha in policy than what I ever will be.
I believe you are sincere, but in fact, you are pretty much explaining Murtha's reasoning. He also believes that the war is completely unwinnable, that the Arab culture cannot rise to the level of democracy and that tribal hatreds doom the enterprise from the start.
If you go past the funny sound bites and dig in to the arguments the man puts forward, you are peas in a pod.
Our confict with Islamic states bent on jihad is almost as old as the country. The Barbary States of Northern Africa declared war on the US in 1801. Our first war, and the source of the line in the Marine Hymn, "to the shores of Tripoli."
The rise of Arab terrorism has alot more to due with oil wealth than Jerry Ford. With the beginning of massive transfers of wealth to the Middle East in the late 50's and early 60's, folks began imagining that they could be a "power" in the world. In Islam, this translates to "active" jihad. But, in the face of powers like the US and Europe (especially France at the time) the schools of terrorism began in Northern Africa. The success of Israel also created a group of displaced Palestinians who were stateless and passionate about bringing some sort of conflict to the West.
Its not an apologia to note that this was fertile ground for terrorism, but its the Wahabbi schools and the education system funded by Saudi Arabia that is the engine of the current Islamofacists.
Tin pot dictators have always been taken to task by the US when they directly threatened us and not long after Ford came Reagan who happily dropped bombs on Muhamar Kadaffi's home to make the point that you don't support attacks against the US. So, the whole executive order thing falls in shambles.
Instead, terrorists have gotten support by many of the countries of the Middle east because of a whole raft of reasons. First, they are jihadis fighting the holy war of bringing us "infidels" into line. Second, planning and attacking America kept restive elements from planning and attacking the various regimes in the Middle East. Third, the way of distributing wealth in the middle east is through religious channels. This wealth was used to fund schools and community support activities that also helped stave off instability, but this put enormous funds in the hands of some of the most hard line elements of Islam. This money has supported the Madrassa system all across the Islamic world and the core message of this system is Wahabism.
Now, in its starkness and disregard for humanity, Wahabism is a return to the original values of Islam as lived shortly after its founding. This hearkens back to times we now call in Western Civilization the "Dark Ages"
Its amazing to see that you too are lost in this darkness. I hold out as an example that people have left behind Joshua and see that sort of behavior as unacceptable in our world.
Your whole approach to this problem is undergirded by racism and your own feelings of tribalism. The Iranian state has a long history of Democracy. The US for its own reasons decided to meddle in this by placing the Shah of Iran as king by overthrowing the democratically elected government in Iran. We did this for geo-political reasons growing out of the Cold War. Much bile has been split about this, but now it is history. But, if you talk to an Iranian you will get an ear full of determination to have democracy and freedom once again. This impulse is not foreign to folks in the Middle East. And Iraqi's braved threats of death to go to the polls over and over.
The president of Iran, in condemning the United States said that cause of hope of liberalism and democracy have been proven as failures, and that Islam will conquer the US because of our weakness in believing in these things.
From the standpoint of Old Testament kill them to the last woman and child sort of conflict resolution, the United States was founded on a different set of ideals. Instead, our founding fathers insisted on the dignity of each an every human. Saying that God gives us inalienable rights because we exist, that must be observed and protected if we are to be free.
I understand you don't buy into this squishy stuff. But it is why Americans are special.
I will just go back and say despite your black and vague reasoning that peacemaking is beyond our troops. The US and the US army has been fighting and winning against insurgents for almost all of our history and we are quite good at it. We really don't miss many tricks and its all quite firm. The US is almost alone in our ability to win these deals and its because our army is willing to be extremely harsh while at the same time protecting the innocent.
Come into the light and believe in our guys. They really are quite good at it. Our biggest problem is the whiners and nay sayers who spend their time undercutting and fomenting evil. We both agree that the Copperheads of the Democrat party are quite good at it.. but you are acting the useful idiot to this whole bunch. You are carrying their water while claiming to be just thinking about the needs of our troops. Arrrf.. Jack Murtha be thine name.