When Taxes Start Sneaking Across the Border...(Fair Tax Endorsement)

HumanEventsOnline ^ | June 13, 2006 | Mac Jonson

[pigdog]

Look who's complaining about "spam" - at least geez's posts have some meaningful content, King Tut! Try it sometime.

[pigdog]

No, of course not - you prefer the (so-called) flat tax nonsense. All that would do is merely add to the problems we now have ... and you're not perceptive enough to realize that.

[pigdog]

Take your verbal camel dung and stuff it.

[ancient_geezer]

And how does any of those refute the Congressional Research Papers, or even show that Forbes Flat Tax is not just another variant of the Hall Rebushuka Flat Tax.

I have seen all of the information you point to, not one establishes the Forbes Flat Tax from being anything other than a variation of the rest, all of which have their genesis in the Hall/Rebushka flat tax.

Sorry, for all your effort all you have show is there is a bunch of links that claim the Flat Tax to be a consumption tax, same as CRS, claim personal exemptions for individual wages (making it progressive wage tax) same as the CRS paper, and provides for taxing business on the Hall Rebushka model, i.e. a subtraction method VAT just as the CRS paper points out.

The point being, you show nothing that has not been amply claimed in this thread with the Congressional Research Service's summary of the Flat Tax proposals before Congress today.

Sorry, you apparently went to alot of effort to do nothing more than claim what is already established here. The Flat Tax is a faux "consumption tax", that is merely ontop the SS/Medicare taxes in place and tax businesses with a the subtraction method VAT model to claim to be a consumption tax.

[xcamel]

Every single link brings into doubt the "anointed pronouncement" that FT is the do-all end-all of taxation.

World experience tells quite a different story, but again, because "you and yours" have wrapped yourselves in the "infallibility of victimhood" at the hands of the evil IRS; you honestly believe your spammage to be coming from God's lips to your skillful fingers, and everyone should just bow to your vast and powerful pronouncements.

Horsehockey, plain and simple.

[pigdog]

Better - and more honest - than Camelhockey, I'd say!

[xcamel]

January 5, 2006

A Flat-Out Winner for Tax Reform

The flat tax is supports higher growth in Eastern Europe.

By:  Daniel J. Mitchell, Heritage Foundation

This op-ed originally appeared in The Washington Post on Thursday, December 22, 2005

The report issued last month by President Bush's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform landed in no-man's land. The right was disappointed that its proposals were so timid, and the left was critical because the report highlighted the damaging impact of high tax rates on work, saving and investment.

Perhaps the panel could have won more hearts and minds if it had examined the real-world experience with tax reform. The flat-tax revolution in Eastern Europe is particularly compelling. Nine nations from the old Soviet bloc have adopted the flat tax -- which taxes income at one rate -- and others are poised to. In an ironic twist, these countries are rejecting the class-warfare politics of yesteryear and building tax systems specifically designed to attract investment, fuel economic growth and treat all citizens fairly.

Russia, for instance, enjoys the benefits of the 13 percent flat tax it adopted in 2001. The tax quickly yielded positive results. Revenue poured into government coffers as tax evasion and avoidance became much less profitable. Inflation-adjusted personal income tax revenue has more than doubled since the flat tax was implemented.

But Russia was simply learning from its neighbors. Estonia was the first, adopting a 26 percent flat rate in 1994. Latvia and Lithuania followed in the mid-1990s, with 25 percent and 33 percent rates, respectively. Serbia was next; in 2003 it went with a 14 percent rate. Last year, it was Slovakia (19 percent) and Ukraine (13 percent). This year it's been Romania (16 percent) and Georgia, which boasts the lowest rate -- 12 percent.

Estonia has been cutting its rate: It's at 24 percent and will drop to 20 percent before the end of the decade. Lithuania also has decided to make its flat tax more competitive; the rate will go from 33 to 24 percent.

The flat tax is not a silver bullet. But combined with other market reforms, it provides a significant economic boost. All three Baltic nations are enjoying strong growth, averaging over 5 percent per year. No wonder the "Baltic Tigers" became role models for the region. This growth is generating plenty of tax revenue, in part because tax evasion has been dramatically reduced. And the rich are paying the lion's share: In Estonia, for instance, the top 10 percent are paying 41 percent of the tax.

Slovakia's system is not yet two years old, but it's already successful. According to the director of Slovakia's Hayek Institute, income-tax revenue is 0.5 percent of gross domestic product larger than predicted by "static" estimates (those that fail to account for inevitable changes in behavior when tax laws are changed). New investment is flooding Slovakia. So many car companies are building factories that the country is being called the "Detroit of Europe."

Others have noticed the economic success these nations are enjoying. The newly elected coalition in Poland may implement a flat tax, and the opposition party in the Czech Republic has promised a 15 percent flat-tax regime if it wins the next election. Lawmakers in Croatia, Bulgaria and Hungary are discussing tax reform.

Western European politicians have cast a wary eye on this tax revolution. Bureaucrats in the European Union and the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development object to "harmful" tax competition, and politicians from France and Sweden complain about "fiscal dumping." But such criticism is hard to take seriously coming from leaders who preside over economies saddled with high unemployment and anemic growth.

Indeed, some Western European lawmakers, including those in Spain, Greece, Denmark, Holland, Germany and Britain, have begun discussing the possibility of implementing a flat tax.

That these discussions are even taking place is a testimony to the liberalizing force of tax competition. And if the rumors are true about China's implementing a flat tax sometime next year, the tax-reform steamroller may become a juggernaut.

To be sure, Eastern European nations don't have perfect tax systems. Many are still plagued by oppressively high payroll taxes. But tax reform in Eastern Europe is a clear success, and the United States can learn from what other nations have accomplished.

Our economy, under a flat tax, probably wouldn't grow quite as fast as Estonia's, and it's unlikely that we'd get the same revenue windfall as Russia. But the evidence from Eastern Europe strongly suggests that a flat tax would strengthen our economy, improve tax compliance and reduce political corruption. We also could expect it to boost capital formation; it has been a magnet for new investment in Eastern Europe.

In recent years President Bush has praised Russia's flat tax. He even said during a visit to Slovakia that it was his dream to have a flat tax in the United States. Let's hope that dream becomes a reality. America and the West may have won the Cold War, but if we continue to be burdened by the internal revenue code, the former communist nations may get the last laugh.

The writer is a senior fellow in political economy at the Heritage Foundation.


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[pigdog]

Sure enough .... Camelhockey as predicted.

[pigdog]

Daniel Mitchell is known for pushing a flat tax but has said that he'd also settle for a tax such as the FairTax realizing it is preferable to the present system.

What he, unfortunately, misses is that ANY flat tax is an income-based tax and suffers from that (and many other deficiencies) as shown in this post.

[xcamel]

Regardless of how successful it is in the rest of the civilized world..

Pure unadulterated denial on your behalf.

[pigdog]

If you'd bother to dig out more information about the "success" you'd see multiple taxes in addition to the so-called "flat tax" with the total burden of the taxpayer at truly unbelievable amounts.

It's really a mind-boggling thing to note the complete tax burdens that taxpayers in these countries carry simply because their governments have run rampant with socialism.

That's hardly the type of success I hope to see here. Any flat tax has far too many things counting on the down side to ever be in serious contention as the tax law of the land here.

Chief among these difficulties is the fact that it's still an income tax. A lot of the countries to see to hold up as tax models also have VATs in addition. Perhaps you thing that having both is some sort of tax nirvana. I don't.

[xcamel]

I never said it was perfect, but it's a hell of allot better than the snake oil you're selling.

Oh, and by the way, none of the countries using it are socialist, or at least not since the Berlin wall fell.

Oh, and they are without exception, the fastest growing economies in the world.

Oh, and the populations gladly pay their taxes when asked.

Oh, and their compliance costs are .006% of revenues.

Oh, and the number one socialist, and convicted felon, and prime democrat and leftist fundraiser, George Soros, thinks the fairtax is a "wonderful idea"

Oh, and Hugo Chavez loves it sooo much, It's what they're doing, along with Evo Morales.

[ancient_geezer]

Every single link brings into doubt the "anointed pronouncement" that FT is the do-all end-all of taxation.

ROTFLMAO

Of course the Flat Tax (FT) is not the do-all end-all of taxation. If you like VATs, progressive wage taxes, and faux consumption taxe, high adminitrative burden tax system your going to love the Flat Tax (FT) and general income taxes.

Of course the Fair Tax (NRST) is not the do-all end-all of taxation. If you want to see what your paying for government, want an above board actual consumption tax instead of a back-door-crypto consumption tax with the states the folks adminitrating the tax system instead of the Feds and their everyloving IRS. You will love the the NRST as implemented in the FairTax legislation.

All depends whether you want your government and its costs handed to you as a pig-in-the-poke Flat VAT Income Tax or an above board, everyone sees it, National Retail Sales Tax/

World experience tells quite a different story

World experience tells us we started with essentially the Flat Tax back in 1913, guess what it grew up to be. The current Income/Payroll tax system with 60,000 pages of gobbledegook that knowone can decipher and everyone is subject to regardless of the fact that no to tax preparers can come up with the same answer for anything beyond a bare-bones set of circumstances.

Horsehockey, plain and simple

Horsehocky indeed, where any income tax or VAT system come in to play. Both have one end and one end only the perpetuation of power in a small group of elites, nothing more and nothing less.

The EU & Russia is repleat with Flat Tax/VAT examplesthey effect economies and are used for the social/political machinations of which even Machiavelli would stand in awe of.

[xcamel]

In 1913 Blacks couldn't marry whites - we fixed that
in 1913 women couldn't vote - we fixed that.

in neither case did we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[ancient_geezer]

In 1913 Blacks couldn't marry whites - we fixed that
in 1913 women couldn't vote - we fixed that.

in neither case did we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Indeed, in 1912 we had consumtion taxes predominately in the form of tariffs and excises many of which were collected at retail sale.

In 1913 we started a flat tax, and certainly threw out the baby and bathwater both by dumping the taxation of consumption in favor of taxing income to specifically "tax the rich" in the parlance of that day.

The only way flat tax at that time was sold was its personal exemption, still with us in the same forms today. To assure soaking the rich.

We all know the history of the 1913 flat tax and the monster it rapidly became in this country and the every growing power of government and socialization of our institutions.

Those that do not pay attention to history, are doomed to repeat it.

[xcamel]

Those who do not advance in history are doomed to end up like muslims.

[ancient_geezer]

Those who do not advance in history are doomed to end up like muslims.

Exactly. We had a Flat Income Tax in 1913, which replaced tariffs and excise consumption taxes.

We now have a moribund income/payroll tax system that would be the envy of Machiavelli for its capacity for the control citizens, social engineering and political manipulation.

It is time to end end the "progressive" farce and return to a taxsystem that is designed to empower the citizen's options over government's capacity for suppression. A tax system designed for the convenience of the American people:

 

Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratifying Convention June 12, 1788:

• "the oppression arising from taxation, is not from the amount but, from the mode -- a thorough acquaintance with the condition of the people, is necessary to a just distribution of taxes. The whole wisdom of the science of Government, with respect to taxation, consists in selecting the mode of collection which will best accommodate to the convenience of the people."

 

not the empowerment of yet more government.

Federalist #21:

"Imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will, in time, find its level with the means of paying them. The amount to be contributed by each citizen will in a degree be at his own option, and can be regulated by an attention to his resources. The rich may be extravagant, the poor can be frugal; and private oppression may always be avoided by a judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions. "

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess.

They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue."

When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four."

If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds.

This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.

 

You can take your Flat Income Tax, and related VATs to Europe where they surely appreciate them.

[pigdog]

But it's not 1913 anymore --- and the baby has outgrown his britches so you couldn't throw him out if you tried.

It would be nice to begin to bring him under control via the FairTax though.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

The Point is that guarding the border would be ten times more effective including having ten times more border guards.

Sounds like a good use for all those IRS gestapo who would be idled by the FairTax.