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THE AMERICAN WAR ON SCIENCE
Seed Magazine ^ | 1 June 2006 | Christopher Mims

Posted on 06/02/2006 9:02:13 AM PDT by RKV

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Why import H1B immigrants when we should be educating our own? Could it be that by importing labor (increasing supply) that we reduce the rewards for our own citizens to take the long and arduous path to science and engineering excellence?
1 posted on 06/02/2006 9:02:15 AM PDT by RKV
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To: RKV

Next we'll be recruiting ILLEGAS for this and call it the "jobs Americans won't do" and pay them to do it.


2 posted on 06/02/2006 9:05:38 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) !)
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To: RKV
Why import H1B immigrants when we should be educating our own?

To a greater degree (I couldn't say precisely how much), "our own" come from homes where education is intrinsically valued less, where single parents make close attention to education in the house much more difficult, and where the local public schools perform miserably for reasons that have almost nothing to do with money.

So it seems unavoidable to me that exclusively "educating our own," given the society from which they come, will mean a significant drop in U.S. scientific talent.

3 posted on 06/02/2006 9:06:39 AM PDT by untenured
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To: untenured
So your suggestion is to just give up, huh? My son and his friends are taking Geometry (normally a 2nd year high school subject) as 8th graders. They aren't giving up. We shouldn't give up on them either. I personally taught a group of 6th graders how to do basic html coding. American kids CAN do it. Let's not quit on them.
4 posted on 06/02/2006 9:13:43 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: RKV
I've just graduated with a degree in chemistry and physics. Let me tell you, the last thing that I want is a foreigner taking a potential job away from me. I would love to see a change in attitude towards science and mathematics in this country, because it needs to happen. NOW. Whenever I talk to people, they express such disgust and fear over science and mathematics that it's dismaying.
5 posted on 06/02/2006 9:14:08 AM PDT by Beaker
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To: RKV

With political mush like this from friends, science doesn't need enemies.


6 posted on 06/02/2006 9:14:29 AM PDT by bkepley
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To: RKV

This morning I heard an ongoing story on the radio about a lawsuit involving three illegal alien students against the Albuquerque Public School district and how APS will modify their policies to become a "safe haven" for illegals. Immediately following that was another news story about how US students score abysmally in math and science compared to other countries. One can only conclude that there is a concerted effort to turn the US into a third world country.


7 posted on 06/02/2006 9:17:38 AM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: RKV

Undoubtedly some American kids can do better than they are, but if so it will be their parents who make it happen. Much good could come from emphasizing the importance of solid families in solid education, but it is not a magic bullet against these broader social trends.


8 posted on 06/02/2006 9:21:01 AM PDT by untenured
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To: bkepley

So what specifically do you have problems with in this article? Sweeping general criticism without details to support it doesn't really go too far with me.


9 posted on 06/02/2006 9:21:59 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: RKV
All of this is admirable, but it comes from a president who consistently demonstrates a disdain for areas of science that disagree with his personal ideology. Again and again, whether it is stem cells or energy policy or global warming or the dubious need to "teach the controversy," Bush has demonstrated that he is, literally, anti-rational—opposed to the assumptions about proof and inquiry without which science would be merely alchemy.

Why does EVERYTHING have to turn into a Bush bash. These liberals just can't control themselves. This statement is simply ignorant. I say its the liberals who are operating now in an irrational manner.

Please, this is just so stupid. So Bush is against EMBRYONIC stem cell research, sceptical about Global Warming Doom and Gloomism ( a scientific position that I maintain), and he disagrees with liberals about energy policy. Gee, I guess the decades long disinterest in science shown by American kids is his fault. Ok, well its not his fault, but if he all of a sudden BELIEVED in those three things, it would all be better! How utterly ridiculous.

10 posted on 06/02/2006 9:23:42 AM PDT by Paradox (Removing all Doubt since 1998!)
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To: RKV
It would be absurd to blame a politician for a nationwide decline in scientific interest

But the writer, Christopher Mims, goes on to do just that. He also makes some spectacularly unsupported statements and leaps of faith in order to make his argument sound more substantive than it is. Not a desirable trait in a "science writer", is it...

11 posted on 06/02/2006 9:25:04 AM PDT by Zeppo
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: RKV
What's wrong with the article? Well, I loved the little rhetorical link to "peak oil" that the author throws in. For me, that tells me he's running a scam. But, really, my favorite part is this:

Again and again, whether it is stem cells or energy policy or global warming or the dubious need to "teach the controversy," Bush has demonstrated that he is, literally, anti-rational—opposed to the assumptions about proof and inquiry without which science would be merely alchemy.

This is written by an ideologue with an agenda. I don't share his agenda.

13 posted on 06/02/2006 9:25:37 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (I face pressure! You face pressure!)
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To: untenured

Higher wages do incentivise people in a market economy. If you continue to increase the supply of labor (of a particular kind) you lower the return on investment in education and rational people make decisions on that basis. Further, based on my university experience, failing to demand better teaching than exists now, will certainly not help the situation. My calculus teacher (way back in the pliestocene when I was mushy headed freshman) had english as his third language. His class was awful an I thank my TAs for getting me through it. We can and should do better.


14 posted on 06/02/2006 9:26:03 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Whether or not you agree with his politics does have the basic points wrong? I think not. We need to improve science education in the US.


15 posted on 06/02/2006 9:28:57 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: RKV
So what specifically do you have problems with in this article? Sweeping general criticism without details to support it doesn't really go too far with me.

Why don't we start with the title? Sounds like a Middle School report.

16 posted on 06/02/2006 9:29:30 AM PDT by bkepley
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To: bkepley
I don't know about you, but I would say that the whole "intelligent design" curriculum is evidence of what we are doing wrong (as conservatives that is).
17 posted on 06/02/2006 9:33:03 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: RKV
It would be absurd to blame a politician for a nationwide decline in scientific interest,

Indeed.

but it stands to reason that a president elected, and then re-elected, must in some way embody the beliefs of the electorate—here, specifically, its prioritization of science.

QED

18 posted on 06/02/2006 9:33:54 AM PDT by bkepley
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To: RKV
I don't know about you, but I would say that the whole "intelligent design" curriculum is evidence of what we are doing wrong (as conservatives that is).

No you don't know me and I don't give a damn about intelligent design.

19 posted on 06/02/2006 9:35:07 AM PDT by bkepley
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To: RKV
Higher wages do incentivise people in a market economy.

I doubt that the reason for poor American sci/math performance is a wage problem occurring because of low-cost foreigners, although I admit it's possible. I think you're underestimating the power of all of contemporary American society's incentives to devalue S/M education.

Further, based on my university experience, failing to demand better teaching than exists now, will certainly not help the situation.

I work in a university, and can't fault you there. :)

20 posted on 06/02/2006 9:36:39 AM PDT by untenured
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