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Click it or ticket
townhall ^ | 5/24/06 | Walter WIlliams

Posted on 05/31/2006 9:42:50 AM PDT by from occupied ga

Virginia's secretary of transportation sent out a letter announcing the state's annual "Click It or Ticket" campaign May 22 through June 4. I responded to the secretary of transportation with my own letter that in part reads:

"Mr. Secretary: This is an example of the disgusting abuse of state power. Each of us owns himself, and it follows that we should have the liberty to take risks with our own lives but not that of others. That means it's a legitimate use of state power to mandate that cars have working brakes because if my car has poorly functioning brakes, I risk the lives of others and I have no right to do so. If I don't wear a seatbelt I risk my own life, which is well within my rights. As to your statement 'Lack of safety belt use is a growing public health issue that . . . also costs us all billions of dollars every year,' that's not a problem of liberty. It's a problem of socialism. No human should be coerced by the state to bear the medical expense, or any other expense, for his fellow man. In other words, the forcible use of one person to serve the purposes of another is morally offensive."

My letter went on to tell the secretary that I personally wear a seatbelt each time I drive; it's a good idea. However, because something is a good idea doesn't necessarily make a case for state compulsion. The justifications used for "Click It or Ticket" easily provide the template and soften us up for other forms of government control over our lives.

For example, my weekly exercise routine consists of three days' weight training and three days' aerobic training. I think it's a good idea. Like seatbelt use, regular exercise extends lives and reduces health care costs. Here's my question to government officials and others who sanction the "Click It or Ticket" campaign: Should the government mandate daily exercise for the same reasons they cite to support mandatory seatbelt use, namely, that to do so would save lives and save billions of health care dollars?

If we accept the notion that government ought to protect us from ourselves, we're on a steep slippery slope. Obesity is a major contributor to hypertension, coronary disease and diabetes, and leads not only to many premature deaths but billions of dollars in health care costs. Should government enforce, depending on a person's height, sex and age, a daily 1,400 to 2,000-calorie intake limit? There's absolutely no dietary reason to add salt to our meals. High salt consumption can lead to high blood pressure, which can then lead to stroke, heart attack, osteoporosis and asthma. Should government outlaw adding salt to meals? While you might think that these government mandates would never happen, be advised that there are busybody groups currently pushing for government mandates on how much and what we can eat.

Government officials, if given power to control us, soon become zealots. Last year, Maryland state troopers were equipped with night vision goggles, similar to those used by our servicemen in Iraq, to catch night riders not wearing seatbelts. Maryland state troopers boasted that they bagged 44 drivers traveling unbuckled under the cover of darkness.

Philosopher John Stuart Mill, in his treatise "On Liberty," said it best:  "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise."

Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University in Fairfax, VA as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: 4a; 4thamendment; clickitorticket; donutwatch; fourthamendment; governmentabuse; govwatch; libertarians; mdm; policeabuse; seatbelt; seatbelts; walterwilliams
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To: Old Professer

Check the zoo programs for them over the past thirty years. They are still kicking and a zoo is why. But anyway on with the debate.


381 posted on 05/31/2006 1:15:10 PM PDT by BlueStateDepression
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To: BlueStateDepression
YOU MADE THAT CHOICE when you agreed to the RULES OF THE ROAD when you got your driver license.

That is one super ignorant statement.

382 posted on 05/31/2006 1:15:55 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
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To: BlueStateDepression

>>Rob you might think you can see every car all the time...it is your right to think you can be perfect. Seems you had trouble with already three times eh?<<

No, actually the reason I didn't go down is that I ride and drive very defensive and am prepared for people to turn in front of me. 'can't help what happens to their car when we impact though.

Regarding being able to see every car, that is why I stop at BLIND corners where I can't see. Other than that I just treat ALL red lights as "flashing" red lights, short of the possibility of a cop being around. Based on my experience by where I work, I am not alone.

In Washington state, there is no rule of law.


383 posted on 05/31/2006 1:17:29 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: Gabz
You do the math, more people died while wearing seat belts than while not.

Gabz, it's worse than that. 99% of all accidents were caused by drivers licenced by the state to operate motor vehicles on the highway at lethal speeds. ;-)

384 posted on 05/31/2006 1:20:35 PM PDT by Badray (CFR my ass. There's not too much money in politics. There's too much money in government hands.)
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To: Tokra

>>These are EXACTLY the same principle you are proposing with seat belts - no difference.<<

And I would agree with all of them.


385 posted on 05/31/2006 1:21:38 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: BlueStateDepression
the Deer example I afforded you is real and losing control of a car after initial collision is not far fetched in the least.


Unless you have real evidence to the contrary, I believe that wearing a seatbelt or not has minimal effect on whether others will be harmed.

In the unlikely event I hit a deer, and in the unlikely event that in such a rural place there are other motorists nearby, the odds of my hitting them are minimally if at all affected by whether I am wearing a seatbelt.

If you need such silly scenarios to make your case, it tells me something about your case.

Forgive me, but you are a retired government employee, aren't you?
386 posted on 05/31/2006 1:21:43 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: BlueStateDepression

Wow, it is the destination that counts.


387 posted on 05/31/2006 1:23:38 PM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Tokra

Dead people are cheaper than injured people.

Just a thought.


388 posted on 05/31/2006 1:23:43 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: MileHi
Thanks for that link. Colo needs to be educated...

You're welcome.

However, if you think people will read it and stop arguing with you, you're wrong.

That was a few hundred posts ago on this thread, for example.

389 posted on 05/31/2006 1:25:16 PM PDT by elkfersupper
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To: BlueStateDepression

It should be a CHOICE to pay those premiums right? That is the point you have been making this whole thread right?



Yes, one chooses to drive while taking responsibility for the harm one might cause, or one chooses not to.

When you do things that can endanger others, you need first to be able to pay for damage you know you might cause.

>>Are you seeking to force me to pay fines, fees, or anything else you wish to call that forced money transfer?

Not unless you want to drive on public roads where you might harm others.

>>Assuming risk should be choice right? Isn't that what you have been saying?

Assuming your own risk is fine. But others on the road do not assume the risk that your error may harm them, and that you might not have the means to compensate them as the law requires.


390 posted on 05/31/2006 1:25:24 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: chrispycsuf
you sound like such a libertarian..."its capitalism, stupid"

With comments like this and the others that you've made, perhaps you need to change your screen name to Crispy Stuff.

391 posted on 05/31/2006 1:25:29 PM PDT by Badray (CFR my ass. There's not too much money in politics. There's too much money in government hands.)
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To: Beelzebubba
Do you REALLY want to live in a world where there is zero traffic enforcement?

I've been following this thread, as I always do when something brings out the extreme libertarian element at FR, have resisted the urge to chime in until now, can do so no longer.

Basically, I ask this question: Is it possible to be a good political conservative without being a libertarian? Because I have been a conservative political activist for going on four decades now, but I do not have a libertarian bone in my body. I guess it's because I'm an old-line law and order conservative from the '60s, and doesn't the entire concept of law and order inherently involve compelling people, in some circumstances, to do that which they do not want to do, or prohibiting them from doing that which they want to do? In other words, placing limits on their personal freedom.

And is it nannystatism ... it certainly isn't socialism, it does not involve the means of production; IMHO we come off looking bad when we scream "socialism" at everything we disagree with ... or is it the realization that things have changed to such an extent in the last 80 years or so ... and to me, this predates the New Deal or any of the changes FDR wrought in our country which we're still suffering the consequences of today, has more to do with extreme urbanization, changes in the way people do business, so many people going hither and yon, etc. ... to where everyone's lives are so interconnected ... and I'm not talking about through the government, don't even put them in the equation, I'm talking about just in our everyday functioning and relationships to each other ... that it's a pipedream to think that we can ever again have the kind of unfettered individualism that folks on the extreme libertarian side advocate? Isn't it pretty nigh impossible to put genies back in bottles?

Donning my Nomex now. :)

392 posted on 05/31/2006 1:25:50 PM PDT by GB
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To: Tokra

"Why is it OK to have speed limits, but not seat belt laws."

You can't be serious.

In case you are, let me put it this way: the purpose of the government is to protect our borders from invasion and protect us from each other.

The speed limit satisfies number two. The seat belt laws are out of scope of the purpose of the government - at least they are in a free society, which we clearly are not.


393 posted on 05/31/2006 1:27:12 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: Protagoras

It may be an open forum but name calling post after psot after post isn't exactly part of the program.

Go on and continue the namecalling if you must I will simply do as you just said. I will disregard your posts and let you namecall on your own.

I have asked you to refrain from posting to me based on your namecalling and an honorable person would do so.

I guess we shall see huh.


394 posted on 05/31/2006 1:28:17 PM PDT by BlueStateDepression
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To: RobRoy
Dead people are cheaper than injured people.

Haven't buried anyone lately have you?

395 posted on 05/31/2006 1:29:17 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
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To: Old Professer

Drunk or otherwise, ( some on this thread would say it is a violation of a right to enforce that aspect also),
He had the same attitude. WHY stop on a deserted road. If you remember he thought that highway was deserted also.


396 posted on 05/31/2006 1:29:36 PM PDT by BlueStateDepression
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To: dfwgator

Can you just imagine the Founders sitting around discussing the Constitution and Bill of Rights when someone brings up the idea of listing the right to travel about on horseback or horsedrawn carriage?

They'd have been laughed out of the room. No one would ever dare to restrict your right to travel or call it a privilege.

It's one of those pesky unenumerated rights. It's our by virtue of being here.


397 posted on 05/31/2006 1:31:10 PM PDT by Badray (CFR my ass. There's not too much money in politics. There's too much money in government hands.)
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To: GB
Do you REALLY want to live in a world where there is zero traffic enforcement?


No, and I never really suggested it. It is interesting to contemplate how people would go crazy, or not. Do people stop at red lights because of fear of being ticketed? Do they not drive 120mph on the ice because they worry about tickets?

Still, I leave room for enforcement of the laws that have a meaningful effect on public safety (arrests for people whose driving is clearly drunk, etc.)

>>Basically, I ask this question: Is it possible to be a good political conservative without being a libertarian?

It's not possible to be a good *anything* without a fundamental respect for the principles of liberty (some conservatives have such respect, as do most "libertarians".) Leave the label aside, and talk about what beliefs or principles you are referring to.

>>I'm an old-line law and order conservative

Franco had law and order. Liberty is something different, though not incompatible with lawfulness.
398 posted on 05/31/2006 1:31:44 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: BlueStateDepression

>>I love how you will inject abortion into this. <<

>>I do love however that you found a way to tie abortion to seat belts!<<

Thank you and thank you. I aims to please (and so does Louise).


399 posted on 05/31/2006 1:32:06 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: dfwgator
On public roads.T

There are no public roads, or we wouldn't be having this discussion

There are only government roads and private roads (and the private roads are really only rented from the government).

400 posted on 05/31/2006 1:32:59 PM PDT by elkfersupper
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