Replies

Ireland is one nation by way of history, language, culture and tradition, as well as current de facto political agreement.

No it isn't. Northern Ireland has a completely different culture and tradition from the rest of Ireland. Eamonn Collins, an IRA terrorist, stated that he felt far more at home in Edinburgh than in Dublin. Nor is Ireland one nation based on the Good Friday Accords. Quite the opposite in fact - the Republic of Ireland has renounced its territorial claim to Northern Ireland.

And in regards to voting, the question of Northern Ireland's status has been settled by democratic vote. The Dail, with a Sinn Fein majority, voted to ratify partition. The people of Northern Ireland voted by referendum to remain part of the UK. And frankly, if there were an all-Ireland vote(which there never will be for reasons already gone over), the results might surprise you. The overwhelming number of people in NI want to remain part of the UK, including a sizeable number of Catholics, and most people in the Republic feel little or no attachment to NI, view its inhabitants as a pack of nutters, and are happy to let British taxpayers foot the bill for policing NI. The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears.

"...Nor is Ireland one nation based on the Good Friday Accords. Quite the opposite in fact - the Republic of Ireland has renounced its territorial claim to Northern Ireland...."

The RoI agreed in good faith to this controversial provision while negotiating for the joint governmental oversight of Ulster with the U.K., as you know. I think it is fair to say that both parties viewed this arrangement as a transitional step toward ultimate unification by democratic process, not as an acknowledgment of the permanent nature of the status quo ante.

"...The Dail, with a Sinn Fein majority, voted to ratify partition..."

The Dail ratified partition under duress. That is, the British government threatened to impose draconian oppression and economic privation upon the Irish if they did not accept this unholy bargain, as well as agreeing to forgo the notion of an Irish republic and accept the indefinite sovereignty of the crown over an "Irish Free State." If my math is correct, it took Dev another fourteen years to correct this mistake. Contracts agreed upon under duress and threat of violence are not valid in law, nor in historical circumstance, in my opinion.

"...And frankly, if there were an all-Ireland vote(which there never will be for reasons already gone over), the results might surprise you. The overwhelming number of people in NI want to remain part of the UK, including a sizable number of Catholics, and most people in the Republic feel little or no attachment to NI, view its inhabitants as a pack of nutters, and are happy to let British taxpayers foot the bill for policing NI. The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears...."

You may be right. But, I sense that if this were the truth the government of the U.K. would have moved expeditiously to carry out a plebiscite on the issue in conjunction with the RoI and the multilateral organizations to settle the matter. They've had nearly forty years of civil rights demonstrations, guerrilla violence and civil unrest that could largely have been avoided by taking affirmative action in this regard, not to mention all the domestic and international opprobrium.

And, as I wrote earlier, the notion that it is advisable to simply let the wiggers up north fight it out among themselves is fashionable in the RoI, but it is less so here in the States. Perhaps we are sentimental and foolish. Or, perhaps we don't look the other way when we encounter injustice and bigotry. We are used to bearing burdens for just but unpopular causes and receiving nothing but scorn from the bien pensee crowd in return. So be it.

"..The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears..."

But the institutional and cultural structures that permit systematic bias against minorities can be dismantled expeditiously. (See RSA). I believe tremendous progress could be made in ending the injustice (and thereby the strife) by expediting the reform of the RUC and ending de facto support of loyalist paramilitary groups by the NIR government. I don't see this happening under the existing circumstances, even eight years (has it been that long?) since the Good Friday Accords were signed.

By the way, I got involved in this imbroglio primarily in defense of Bertie Ahern. Perhaps the Taoiseach is not the free marketeer that we would wish him to be (there isn't much of a constituency for free market/capitalist economic policies in Ireland, is there?), and perhaps his personal life is not perfect (nor are any of ours); but he towers above any other successful politician in Western Europe, by my way of thinking, and you are fortunate to have him. It is my hope that the Irish do not cut off their noses to spite their faces by embracing the failed policies of statist socialism and the soul destroying anti-life, anti-family secularism of the EU. For better or worse, Bertie and FF are the last best defense.

Slane, it's useless talking to him - it's seems he's better informed on Irish affairs than, well, us Irish.

So, I'm going to go on another thread an lecture some Americans about American affairs!! ;)

"...Bertie Ahern rammed the Nice Treaty down the throats of the Irish Electorate (I know, I was there....)..."

Slane, you seem to be a reasonable chap. Perhaps you can reason with your good friend.

Perhaps you will remind him that Fianna Fail was a lukewarm supporter of Nice at best, and advocated passage principally, if not solely, on the basis of the need to have a Yes vote to maintain the flow of investment capital and agricultural subsidies to the RoI from the EU. If my memory serves me (I admit to not having followed this too closely), Ahern and FF negotiated some changes to the treaty to make it more palatable to Irish voters.

Be that as it may. It is unquestionable that Fine Gael and Labor were wildly enthusiastic about the treaty. Why? Because they viewed it as a way to undermine free market/low tax policies in the RoI and to weaken the moral underpinning of Irish law as regards the sanctity of life, the primacy of the family, and the definition of marriage and any other aspect of Irish life and culture that does not conform to the politically correct notions of the secularists in the Hague. One can pound one's spoon on the high chair tray and scream about "Bertiebots' all you want, but a vote against FF is a vote for FG/Labor. Pick your poison, my friends.