Posted on 05/22/2006 3:59:18 PM PDT by Axlrose
Israel and the United States are battling over the sale of the next generation of warplanes, the F-35, with Israel considering canceling plans to purchase some 100 aircraft, IDF officials said Monday.
Israel is insisting it be allowed to upgrade the planes with its own technological warfare systems, as it has done with the F-15, the F-16 and the F-16-I, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the sides are trying to resolve the issue.
The United States has rejected Israel's request, at least partly because the Israeli systems are considered the best in the world and provide stiff competition to US companies, the officials said.
Israel was reinstated as a partner in the development of the F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), after Israeli participation was put on hold following the Chinese arms deal crisis.
Israeli participation in JSF development was suspended as part of US sanctions against Israel following the Israeli agreement to upgrade Chinese 'Harpy' UAV's, which was done without prior consultation with the US.
Israeli defense industries expect to sign contracts worth tens of millions of dollars as part of the project. The JSF, also known as the F-35 fighter, is supposed to serve as the major aviation platform for all branches of US military and for many military forces around the world, replacing the F-15 and F-16 fighters.
Pos
Is there a real issue here ? Both our closest allies seem to think there is.
Or is it a case of "buy our jets, on our terms, because you can't get better anywhere else" ?
He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Most likely the underlying problem is that we sell the same platforms to Israel's enemies. In greater numbers. If Israel can't upgrade the platform, they're left at a disadvantage.
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The Brits also had a problem with two other aspects of the program:
1. The decision not to use the GE & Rolls Royce alternate engine, which reversed a prior decision to do so.
2. The refusal to give the Brits the source code for the software. In addition to making upgrading very difficult, this was a concern because of the possibility that the US could effectively turn the F-35 "off" without the Brits' permission. Whether such a backdoor actually exists or not is up for debate, but I certainly understand the Brits' concern.
So why the refusal ?
We don't want the Israelis to be left at a disadvantage.
Really?
"The United States has rejected Israel's request, at least partly because the Israeli systems are considered the best in the world and provide stiff competition to US companies, the officials said."
Have to confess to a little "Jewish pride" here.
She's always harping on the 'selling to Israel's enemies' angle. Nice refutation btw.
That's why they buy OUR aircraft instead of their own home-builts for front-line combat. No one else in the world has aircraft that measure up to our standards. No one...
The big beef that defense establishments in Israel and Britain have with the refusal of the US to provide the technology transfer from the F-35 program is that they will not be able to leverage off the US R&D for free - they will remain many years behind the US because they did not put in their own massive R&D effort. We can sell them the aircraft but they will have to use the systems AS IS or do without the F-35. Buy our stuff or make your own.
Ever since the Sidewinder (AIM-9) and Sparrow (AIM-7) were 'improved' by Israeli defense firms and 'sold' to nations not on good terms with the US has made the US wary about technology transfer out of the US R&D effort. The US Navy is quite aware of what REALLY happens to defense tech transferred to our 'allies'... You don't really believe that the Chinese made all that progress on air-to-air on their own, now do you?
Springfield Armory will sell me a nice M-1A rifle for a price. They will NOT sell me their M-1A die and tooling necessary to compete with them for any price...
dvwjr
According to the annual report issued by the Congressional Research Service, a division of the Library of Congress, only China and India recorded more arms transfer agreements, thus making Egypt the principal arms buyer in the Middle East. The report issued last week in Washington said Egypt recorded $6.5 billion worth of weapons purchases from 2001 to 2004. Israel bought $4.4b. during the same period and Saudi Arabia recorded $3.8b.
For Egypt, which receives $1.3b. in annual US military grants, most of its weapons were purchased from the United States ($5.6b.). Most of this has been for military platforms and weapons, including advanced attack helicopters and fast missile vessels.
The report, entitled "Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations," said Egypt outspent the traditional heavy buyers of Saudi Arabia, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.kokhavivpublications.com/editions/israel/2005/09/egypt-biggest-arms-buyer-in-middle.php
Egypt: Not what it seems
Do you really think that we have to invest billions in rebuilding the IDF on
completely new foundations when in practice we are not facing any
significant conventional threat?
"I see an existential conventional threat based on the formation of two
military alliances directed against us: an Egyptian-Saudi alliance in the
south and a Syrian-Iranian alliance in the north. I am especially concerned
about Egypt. I think that there is a concrete danger that Israel fell asleep
and that when it wakes up it will find itself facing a very tough Egyptian
military challenge."
We have peace with Egypt, a peace that has withstood a series of tests and
has given us 30 years of quiet and prosperity.
"I suggest that we not take at face value the Egyptian declarations of peace
but that we look at the facts. The facts show that a vast army is being
built in Egypt. Egypt faces no threats and has no active border disputes and
no resources but is investing billions in creating an army that has absolute
dominance in the Arab world and in Africa. Why is Egypt doing this? The
numbers are simply astounding. The size of the Egyptian Air Force is about
the same as that of the Israel Air Force, but the number of tanks, artillery
pieces, boats and missile batteries is exponentially greater than ours. The
Egyptian army is far larger than the IDF. But beyond the fact that during 25
years Egypt forged a tremendous force, an additional process has developed
in the past 10 years.
"Since the mid-1990s, Egyptian doctrine, Egyptian indoctrination and
Egyptian training exercises have been directed against Israel. Since the
start of this century Egypt has also invested billions in relocating its
military infrastructures so they are opposite Israel. Initially its
surface-to-surface missiles were scattered across Egypt, whereas now they
are massed against us in the Suez Canal region. The same holds for the
logistics facilities and ammunition dumps. Everything is concentrated on the
two sides of the Suez Canal. There are also worrisome signs in the Sinai
desert itself - perhaps very worrisome, but I cannot elaborate on them. The
lenient interpretation says that this gigantic enterprise is being created
because the Egyptians are afraid of us. But there is also an alternative
interpretation: Egypt is preparing for war. If it walks like a duck and
quacks like a duck, then maybe it really is a duck. If it looks like
preparations for a military confrontation and sounds like preparations for a
military confrontation, then maybe it really is preparations for a military
confrontation against Israel."
Do you believe that Egypt really wants to dwarf Israel and restore it to its
natural dimensions?
"I have no doubt that if Egypt could make Israel disappear from the map, it
would not object to that. A future military confrontation with Israel exists
in the Egyptian national consciousness and in the consciousness of the
Egyptian security forces, and that is what Egyptian strategic planning is
leading toward. I am in favor of peace with Egypt. I welcome the partial
improvement that has occurred in relations in the past year. But I think
that we must not delude ourselves. A definite possibility exists that a
military confrontation between us and Egypt will take place in the future.
We have to deploy for that."
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=29091
"Ever since the Sidewinder (AIM-9) and Sparrow (AIM-7) were 'improved' by Israeli defense firms and 'sold' to nations not on good terms with the US has made the US wary about technology transfer out of the US R&D effort. The US Navy is quite aware of what REALLY happens to defense tech transferred to our 'allies'... You don't really believe that the Chinese made all that progress on air-to-air on their own, now do you?"
Valid point. I have heard some different things about the problem of Israeli transfer of US technology to enemies of the US, but it seems clear that Israel has acted in an immoral way on some occasions in this regard. This causes me great sadness and I completely oppose any such Israeli actions in this regard.
Actually, I wouldn't mind hearing about a book that covered this whole story and a fair-minded way. Some of the issues are pretty complicated, and being an American Jew, it is an important issue to me
The Israeli defense industry will sell anything to anybody for a buck. The copy and clone better and faster than the Chinese. They are not a friend to the US. If there is a war in certain parts of the globe, US servicemen and women will die as a result. Shameful but true.
That's all well and good and Israel needs to be concerned with every possible threat, real or imagined. She is after all surrounded by enemies for the most part and even those who purport to be peaceful would surely not shed a tear should Israel disappear. While I personally think Israel is more than capable of defending herself against the aforementioned alliance it does not mean standing down or falling asleep. Your post supports Israel's need to complete the purchase of the fighters and not posture in an attempt to promote their arms industry. I will support Israel throughout but no longer have tolerance for the resale of our product, improved or otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, the Brits do it too, albeit in a different way. They use the US defense R&D to jumpstart internal defense product efforts for sales to other EU or NATO partners. That explains all the bitching by the F-35 "partners" about the US proprietary "software" for the F-35 - they wish to catch up to the US R&D encompassed by using that software to reverse-engineer the entire system via the specifications inheriently embedded in the software. Everyone can bring something to the the table, but the US should support its allies with military hardware to ensure their survival - but that does not include giving away the store.
Both the Brits and Israelis bring alot to the technology table on limited R&D budgets however the overwhelming basic R&D since WWII has been conducted by the US and its commercial defense establishment. The US did spend around thirteen trillion (2001) dollars on National Defense during the Cold War from 1946-1992 - with a big chunk of that in R&D. I am always willing to help our allies with a withdrawal from our national defense R&D "ATM" - I would not be willing to give them the PIN # to that R&D "ATM"...
Now the F-35 single engine, tri-service jack-of-all trades, master of none may turn out to be another version of the ill-fated US Navy A-12 program, but the systems technology and avionics/networking software developed for the F-22 and F-35 will be important on all future platforms.
dvwjr
Why are we even building jet planes with other countries? These are our military jets.
Why are Israeli avionics better than our own?
I say, American military jets should be the best in the world, and 100% exclusively ours.
We can build inferior planes for export.
In other words, they are still fighting the last war.
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