" you cannot use reason to coax someone out of a position that they did not use reason to get into. "
I had a fascinating exchange yesterday with justshutupandtakeit about the FR bloodbath that occurred around the Schaivo thing. We were on opposite sides, but I think we have now agreed that too many were so emotionally invested (on both sides) that all discussions were based almost solely on emotion. Everybody just talked past one another. Wounds were opened and re-opened, and rifts were made that, for some, have not healed to this day.
It's not too late on immigration - yes, we are all entrenched in our positions, but except for a few, this is still an abstract argument. Yes, middle TN is absolutely overrun with illegals, but I have yet to be a victim of illegal alien crime, or have an auto accident with an uninsured illegal, or lose a job to one. Not that these things aren't important, but it means I can discuss it dispassionately. That was impossible with Schaivo (for both sides).
I daresay most folks are like me - they see ilegals every day, but they don't have an burning hatred based on a personal victimhood at the hands of illegals (I know there have been a few here, but their number is very small).
Therefore, I still have hope that we can discuss this rationally, if we can get past the "personality" and "clique" issues many seem to be having here.
And I had a long exchange with justshutupandtakeit on this thread over this particular issue. Every time he had to make a choice as to whether to say that Bush just might be on the wrong side of this issue, for the reasons I stated above, he backed away from doing such - either yes or no. And my position is hardly extreme, xenophobic or emotional - it is backed by history, current polls and the reality of what just happened in the Senate, along with Bush's past trangressions where he allied with Dems and RINOs to pass agenda items, such as his medicare fiasco.
The Dubai ports deal was the previous major FR blowup, and although I initially was against it, I went to neutral after I got over Bush's quick veto threat that set off my initial concerns. I was willing to listen to the other side and adjusted my views accordingly. With Miers, I initially defended her from the more heinous personal attacks, and gave her a chance until enough evidence came forth that she was clearly not a good choice. So I have been on both sides and shifted my opinions as the debate went forward and more information became available. I am hardly a single issue Bush-bashing border bot - if you ask Spiff, I was more neutral on this issue years ago.
But I simply do not see Bush or his hard-core supporters on FR making ANY kind of reasoned argument as to why Bush should not table the guest worker proposal. Which is why I am of the opinion that this is not a reasoned debate any longer, and has descended into the purely political, with all the nastyness such typically entails. It is impossible to debate someone who will hold a position just because it is Bush's position.
It was not my emotions which caused difficulties on the Schiavo threads but the attacks upon my integrity and humanity because I had the timerity to question the True Believers' version of reality. And the invalid assumption that I had never had to deal with the loss of a beloved or I could have never been so "unfeeling."
Normally I am extremely self-controlled. Any threat to FR will definitely arouse my anger though.