[dirtboy]

I also have a collection of American phone numbers, it's called a phone book.

Quit being stuck on stupid. You know damn well this database tracks who calls whom and is far more significant than a phone book.

I agreed with the NSA survellience without a warrant because there was probable cause involved - at least one of the parties was suspected as being involved in terrorism. But there is no probable cause contained in the raw list of phone calls for Verizon. And the government as a result stepped over a line in asking for the data and compiling it - just as it feels it can have just about any information it wants nowadays. And you just try to quip that problem away.

[tallhappy]

You do not understand what is done. Their is no surveilance being done, only analysis of phone calling patterns.

This sort of stuff could be done for PhD dissertations or studies in a number of different fields with absolutely no problem or issue of privacy.

[mcvey]

DB:

You are perfectly correct. This data base can be used for blackmail and extortion by the government at an incredible level.

I know that no one at FR has ever had an affair or tried to keep a serious illness quiet or even had an unlisted number to keep unwanted interests from calling you, but it does happen. In the hands of the wrong people, this would be a source of an absolutely unlimited growth of authority through the threat of revelation or simply the ability to track anyone and their financial transactions. (By the way, I do not think this in the hand of the wrong people.)

This needs, however, to be balanced against our need for security. The president has the clear authority to do this in time of great danger, just as Lincoln had the clear authority to watch the mails during the Civil War. The answer to how we balance the two is a political decision. I fear that with the MSM and the present set of ‘rats we will not have the debate we need.

But I also have been amazed, and not pleasantly so, about the president’s refusal to go to the country at nighttime and discuss the truly great issues we face with the American people. Presidents can overcome the MSM, but not if they don’t make the effort. I know that Bush is best when talking to a crowd, but such can be arranged. Nixon, not the greatest speaker, addressed the nation from the Oval Office 34 times and managed to carry the day in all but a few instances. Bush has done about as little as can be done regarding educating the people. In this way, he has behaved very much like the senior Bush and, just as the senior Bush became the plaything of the MSM, so has the junior Bush.

McVey

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

If the data is simply a record of two numbers making a connection....how is that a recording of a conversation?

[sinkspur]

But there is no probable cause contained in the raw list of phone calls for Verizon. And the government as a result stepped over a line in asking for the data and compiling it - just as it feels it can have just about any information it wants nowadays. And you just try to quip that problem away.

Lordy, Lordy, dirt. You really are a screaming libertarian, aren't you?

Next, you'll be griping about drivers licenses and license plates.

[Wurlitzer]

"And the government as a result stepped over a line in asking for the data and compiling it - just as it feels it can have just about any information it wants nowadays. And you just try to quip that problem away. "

So based upon this how do we answer the treason party's accusation that the administration did not connect the dots prior to 9/11 and now they and you are telling us to not even collect the dots. Of the number of things I know the government is doing wrong, this does not even register a blip on the former US Constitutional rights violation meter.

Under cover by the MSM, the treason party can attack the right from any side of an issue and in some cases like this both sides of an issue at the same time.

Before I would worry about collecting phone number A called rag head number B 10 times just before something blew up, I would worry about that former 4 amendment when I go to the airport, bus station, government building, etc.

[RobbyS]

I suggest you read the first part of the 4th Amendment, the one that includes the word reasonable. In any case, there is no privacy issue incolved because this information was, like your phone number, the property of the phone companies.