Ethanol fumes

"If I have to refill more often-use more gas, how is Ethynol helpful?"

Few reports are available on the cost of incorporating Ethynol.

Manufacturing, transportation all take fuel.

I have seen reports that it takes more fuel to produce a gallon of Gas w/Eth than just leaving the stuff out.

But, ADM is an equal opportunity corrupter. They give generously to both parties and that is why we have Ethynol.

41 posted on 05/10/2006 2:15:28 PM PDT by Prost1 (Sandy Berger can steal, Clinton can cheat, but Bush can't listen!)

I'll probably regret asking, but what stage of the distillation process do you think couldn't be performed in the average suburban kitchen?

42 posted on 05/10/2006 2:19:07 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky

43 posted on 05/10/2006 2:21:41 PM PDT by mikethevike (We could use a little global warming up here in MN)

My only guess why there isn't more study in the US done on this is that the oil companies want to maintain the illusion of a finite quantity expiring at an unknown date in the future.

I've made this assertion about this dirty little secret of the oil companies and have been called a nutbag.
I mean...everyone knows that oil is non-renewable and finite. The people who sell it to me tell me so. So it must be true.

44 posted on 05/10/2006 2:25:43 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (I can't complain...but sometimes I still do.)

I believe that the major push is to make ethanol from Hemicellulose, which is considered a waste product by paper mills.

I also know that there is a group that is trying to build a plant to produce bio-diesel from cellulose (although their preferred market would be specialty chemicals).

The question is why industrial denatured alcohol (95+%) is not made more from sugar beets and sugar cane in this country?

45 posted on 05/10/2006 2:36:17 PM PDT by Fraxinus

46 posted on 05/10/2006 2:53:00 PM PDT by Lokibob (Spelling and typos are copyrighted. Please do not use.)

It's very likely that once ethanol production really ramps up in the USA most of the ethanol will come from 1) sugar beets, 2) cellulose and 3) corn. Sugar beets will likely be #1 because this plant can be grown almost anywhere in the USA.

Switchgrass could be used as a ethanol source but it's an unknown how fast can you expand switchgrass crop production to a truly industrial scale.

47 posted on 05/10/2006 2:54:17 PM PDT by RayChuang88

To: lilylangtree

Ethanol or biodiesel technology is a fraud.

In the past ethanol was used as a fuel additive to decrease some kinds of pollution.

I would agree that anyone suggesting that it was a viable alternative fuel 5 or ten years ago was pretty much an idiot or a fraud. It was questionable if you could even sustain the energy needs of the production of the ethanol on the ethanol you produced.

More recently the energy returns have gone from almost nothing to small. It's still definitely not an economically viable alternative to gasoline even with the increases we've seen in the price of oil.

However, there is a very promising advance in technology that could make it much more viable. Right now we are making ethanol by fermenting the simpler sugars in the corn. You grow a large plant using relatively large amounts of land and water, and only the sugar in the corn kernels is the part you need.

However, if we copy enzymes used by creatures in nature to break down cellulose into simple sugars to be fermented, then a large percentage of that corn stalk can be fermented into ethanol, and other plants such would likely be a better crop than corn.

Ethanol from cellulose seems to make it possible to produce the ethanol for an attractive cost compared to gasoline, and the more efficient use of the plants means that getting enough ethanol for a significant portion of our fuel needs wouldn't require turning the entire country into corn fields.

However, that just leads us to the problems of our current automobiles engines. I could write a lot of information on this, but let me try and be concise.

Regular autos can handle up to about 15% ethanol, but there's a little performance loss, and most cars aren't going to make as efficient use of the ethanol as they could.

Flex fuel vehicles can handle up to 85% ethanol, but there's about a 30% loss in MPG compared to gasoline. That's sounds horrible, but it really just means you need a bigger fuel tank, and the e85 fuel needs to cost that much less than gas.

The worse part is that there's also a considerable decrease in horsepower, in most of the current flex fuel vehicles. That means bigger engines for the same power, or people filling up with pure gas when they want to have driving be enjoyable.

However, this is also something that can be overcome. It's actually possible to get higher performance from the same size engine with ethanol mixtures if you use higher compression ratios, ethanol has a considerably higher octane ration than gas.

However, what we really need are engines that can provide for they varying needs of compression needed to make the car efficient on a range of fuel mixtures from pure gas to 85% ethanol.

It can be done. However, it's going to take time for the advances to come through and people to buy new cars that take advantage of it.

If it all works out we might be able to use ethanol for about 30% of our fuel needs in maybe 10 or 15 years.

That's very significant, but it's not going to make us energy independent, and it's going to happen quickly.

Subsidies for ethanol fuel now could benefit us by helping with getting started with the distribution system, and it provides at least a little encouragement for people to start buying flex fuel cars now instead of in 5 years. It encourages the automakers to invest in engine research.

It also may encourage investment in ethanol from cellulose technology.

Without the subsidies, it will likely take longer for things to fall in place. If it means that we can cut our oil imports a significant amount a few years earlier, are the subsidies a good idea? Is protecting our domestic agriculture from foreign competition through these subsidies a good idea? Are the subsidies a bad idea like most government interference in markets turns out to be regardless of the stated intentions?

I wouldn't say ethanol as a supplement to gasoline is a fraud, but it is going to be a while be fore it's practical.

Surely, there's technology out there that would eliminate being dependent on gasoline. Where is it?

From what I've learned, ethanol and biodiesel are the among the most promising options that could significantly REDUCE our oil needs in the next decade or so.

If you hear of something that's more promising, let me know, I'm always curious about other possibilities.

48 posted on 05/10/2006 3:14:54 PM PDT by untrained skeptic

The biggest advantage of corn is that the know how and infrastructure to grow it, handle it, store it, market it, transport it and process it are already in place. As ethanol catches on, various of the present advantages of corn could be expected to be overcome by competing stock sources. In a country, and a marketplace, as large as the US, that variety will prove to increase competition (which was once considered a good thing in America).

49 posted on 05/10/2006 3:15:42 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky

To: untrained skeptic

The present gross margin on the processing of ethanol from corn is well over a Dollar a gallon, which is why there's such a mad rush to build new ethanol plants.

50 posted on 05/10/2006 3:18:05 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky

To: lilylangtree

The problem is that we're still dependent on a nonrenewable resource imported from unstable govts.

That's just an imaginary problem of xenophobic minds. The oil producers are much more dependent on us than we are on them. If they raise their prices too much, alternative fuels will be developed even without government subsidies. The gas prices are high now because we don't have enough refineries and gas taxes and regulations are adding substantially to the cost without pruducing any oil.

51 posted on 05/10/2006 3:19:59 PM PDT by ravinson

To: lilylangtree

Nuc power plants and electric cars.

52 posted on 05/10/2006 3:21:49 PM PDT by moehoward

53 posted on 05/10/2006 3:48:59 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)

I'll probably regret asking, but what stage of the distillation process do you think couldn't be performed in the average suburban kitchen?

Extinguishing the fire?

54 posted on 05/10/2006 3:50:43 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)

That could be especially difficult if the home made ethanol were "food grade".

55 posted on 05/10/2006 3:52:51 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky

Apparently we need to ramp up Jerusalem artichoke production!

56 posted on 05/10/2006 4:48:25 PM PDT by kaktuskid

To: untrained skeptic

Currently with an off the shelf sensor turbo charged engines can get better performance (and worse gas mileage) from ethanol. When the sensor detects ethanol it increases the volumetric efficiency of the engine, effectively boosting compression and boosting horsepower. The headache is that the best gaskets for ethanol are different from the best gaskets for gasoline fuels.

57 posted on 05/10/2006 5:06:22 PM PDT by Fraxinus

I didn't realize that the margins had risen that much. Do you have more information on that?

Gas prices have gone up a lot, but since a lot of the costs of producing ethanol is from the energy used in producing and distributing it, so I'm surprised that the margins would go up to what amounts to amazing margins.

Can you point me to a source for that and that might have some info on how they're calculating it?

58 posted on 05/10/2006 5:25:12 PM PDT by untrained skeptic

Few people realize that the American family farm has pretty much disappeared and been replaced by corporate monoculture agribusiness production facilities.

I have been told by persons still "farming" that the most important crop is government subsidies and complying with Dept of Agriculture rules the most important tasks.And we ridiculed the Soviet collectives? own huge tracts of land which they lease out to those who farm the equivalent of a ownship not a farm.

The people in central Ohio are unsure about a proposed 22,000 cow dairy farm----22,000 is the number owned by a 500 or more 1950s farmer TOGETHER .And who also raised 500 or so families.

59 posted on 05/10/2006 5:41:21 PM PDT by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a creditcard?)

I'm sorry, but for a fellow Hoosier , you don't know much about farming in general or family farms in particular.

60 posted on 05/10/2006 7:30:05 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794

Here is an evenings reading on making ethanol:

Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel