Posted on 05/03/2006 1:51:08 PM PDT by kokonut
Students objected to the appointment of Jane Fernandes, who is deaf and is currently the university's provost, because she did not grow up using American Sign Language. Some students also criticized Fernandes for not having warm relations with students.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
I think my neighbor would prefer being a person living in the wider culture, who happens to be deaf. Sure she's "different", but so are blind people, people confined to wheel chairs, "little people", and so forth. While they may do certain activities (wheelchair basketball for example) with other people who fall into that same category, they don't generally limit themselves to that "world" or culture. And I don't think most deaf people do either.
Just before I moved away, my neighbor aquired a boyfriend. A hearing boyfriend, as far as I could tell anyway. Should she have stayed in her own "culture" and shunned him as a "suitor". That would have been sad beyond words, IMHO.
Horse Pucky. They have same brains, and more importantly the same visual cortex. Hearing is a very secondary source of information about the world for most mammals, most especially for people. It's blind people, blind from birth especially, that have a completely different conception of the world. It's true that for communicating, and humans are also very social creatures, sound is and important medium, but as the deaf have so aptly demonstrated, it's also one that is relatively easily substituted for.
I'm curious about one thing though, when deaf people read, do they mentally see the signs corresponding to the words, or do they just "sight read" and go directly to the abstraction that the words stand for "i.e. do they "see" the sign for a chair, or some idealized chair in their minds eye? Most hearing people, reading English or other phonetic language, tend to "hear" the words, even if they are taught the sight reading method, and most people evolve to sight reading even if taught phonetically, at least for all but unfamiliar words.
Corrin, only once did they do that and that was in March of 1988. They protested only because the Board of Trustees (17 hearing and 4 deaf) selected a hearing candidate (Zinser) among the 3 finalists of which two were deaf candidates. It was Mrs. Spillman (leader of the Board of Trustees) who was extremely condescending and said (she denies this) that deaf people are not ready to function in a hearing world. The protest was a fire-storm that lasted a little over a week. And that was 18 years ago. I was there.
This protest right now that's going on is, to me, beyond incredulity when you have the first ever deaf FEMALE president to be selected as the 9th president of Gallaudet Univ. You'd think they'd be happy? Not so. It all boils down to, imo, Deaf culture and being a native ASL signer. Tho the vast majority of protesters are denying that this is the case. Even though the other two finalists are considered as "D"eaf candidates when Dr. Fernandes is merely a deaf candidate.
You said -- "Horse Pucky. They have same brains, and more importantly the same visual cortex. Hearing is a very secondary source of information about the world for most mammals, most especially for people. It's blind people, blind from birth especially, that have a completely different conception of the world. It's true that for communicating, and humans are also very social creatures, sound is and important medium, but as the deaf have so aptly demonstrated, it's also one that is relatively easily substituted for."
A blind person is a hearing person who is lacking sight. They function in the hearing world, as a hearing person. That's not true for the deaf person. A deaf person is not a "hearing person" who happens to have a deficit on hearing.
Now, you have to realize that I'm talking about deaf people who have lived their whole lives that way. This doesn't apply to hearing people who have become deaf later on in life -- even if we're talking that they've been deaf for most of their lives. In that case, they are a hearing person who happens to have a handicap for hearing.
For people who have been deaf for about *all* of their lives -- they'll never be a hearing person or think that way or react the same ways or perceive the world in the same manner or function as that kind of hearing person. You've *got to* get that in your head. It's essential -- if you're ever to understand deaf people. That's just the way it is.
Part of society learning to deal with deaf people is *learning that one aspect* about them. The sooner you learn it -- the better you will be for understanding them.
And I'm not so sure their brains do function in the same ways. Not at all. The one thing I've picked up (I guess from living with deaf people) is that I can "read" hearing people in what they say -- especially when they are not saying what they mean. I usually press the issue when I know what hearing people say is *not* what they actually mean -- and I get in trouble with that personally. Deaf people can usually *read* other people fairly well. And so, many times people are talking at cross-purposes to what they really mean and you can "read it" by looking at them. By now, I just accept that and leave it alone -- otherwise I get into arguments with people.
But..., even though deaf people can usually "read people" fairly well -- they still are extremely suspicious of hearing people. They always suspect that "something is going on" -- because of the nature of being "hearing".
I struggle all the time with the mentality of deaf people. I try to "understand" what they're saying. And it's much easier for me than it is for hearing interpreters. I have to correct them many times. I have spent many years trying to "figure out" how they think. I just don't know. I just know it's *different* -- for sure.
And even though I don't fully *understand* how they think -- at least deaf people trust me, because they know I've "been through it" with my parents. They know that I understand them, from "being there." So, as a result -- I get a "pass" even though I'm hearing -- from the deaf people.
You would never know all this -- unless -- you had been there and lived it. I have. Others have. They're the ones who are making this clear to the other hearing people.
You also said -- "I'm curious about one thing though, when deaf people read, do they mentally see the signs corresponding to the words, or do they just "sight read" and go directly to the abstraction that the words stand for "i.e. do they "see" the sign for a chair, or some idealized chair in their minds eye? Most hearing people, reading English or other phonetic language, tend to "hear" the words, even if they are taught the sight reading method, and most people evolve to sight reading even if taught phonetically, at least for all but unfamiliar words."
First of all, reading normal English for a deaf person would "sorta" like reading a foreign language. I would say not completely -- but enough so -- so that there is *misunderstanding* involved.
Personally, I've tried to *understand it* -- as to what is going on -- but I'm not sure if I can. I can talk ASL, as that's their language -- which is not English -- but their own language and syntax. It's different than we speak. I struggle to understand it -- although I speak it. I'm not sure why I speak it the way that I do -- because I've never received formal training in it -- other than it being my first language. I've just "picked it up" -- not understanding why I do it a certain way. English is my second language.
So, when a deaf person is reading something in a book -- they're "translating" to themselves. Some do a good job and others don't do very well. They stumble and misunderstand things. And likewise, if hearing people are writing something out to them and/or finger-spelling straight English to them. That is *highly prone* to error. I'll guarantee you that.
You ask about their "conception" of what they're reading. Well..., I'm not exactly sure. You could have one sign that could be a series of words in a particular combination (in English). Their "sign" could be something totally different than a sequence of words -- just meaning approximately the same thing. And so, they could *stumble* over those sequence of words (written out) -- but they would *immediately* and *clearly* understand the signing.
They're struggling over the sequence of English words, while the "signing" would be perfectly clear. And you have to sometimes do things *totally differently* than you would *ever see* written down in English. You might have to "set up" a particular scenario just to *get into context* of what you're trying to say. You wouldn't have to do that in English.
I would say that *abstraction* is very much more difficult for the deaf person. That's my particular opinion. And because it is, there is much more need of setting up context and surrounding events -- in explaining an idea (an abstraction of an idea). It's difficult, sometimes.
So, the "words" are probably seen and understood as a "word" in and of itself -- BUT -- "What is the *idea* that is conveyed?" That's the problem! It's the *ideas* -- not the words. Stringing the words together don't necessarily result in the right ideas (for the deaf person).
Perhaps it would be like the hearing English person try to understand Chinese and read it -- "with understanding". I can imagine I would have *great difficulty with that. Perhaps I wouldn't have as much problem with the Western languages, as they have much similarity. But, I would probably fall on my face with Chinese and understanding what on earth they are saying with their symbols. It's probably that way with the deaf person and English -- in a way. With ASL (and with the proper context and setting things up) -- they *will understand*.
Believe me -- you and the rest of the hearing world have a long ways to go to understand the deaf. But, if you try and if you don't keep trying to *make them hearing* -- you'll get there.
One more thing, the deaf people easily pick up on the fact that many in the hearing world "look down their noses" as deaf people and they don't like it. And it's *this type of thinking* that causes this to happen. So, it won't work for either side to perpetrate the kind of thinking that you're exhibiting here. I'm just saying that to set you on a correct path and not the one you're going down.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "She didn't shun me because I'm not deaf, instead she learned to speak, even though she can't hear. Does she speak as well as a hearing person? Yea she does, she just sounds a bit different, but her command of the language is a complete as anyone else of her educational background. She chose to talk as well as sign."
If this person talks as good as you say, then she probably had some hearing when she was growing up, and was trained in speaking well. My mother was, although she was profoundly deaf. She sounded as if she had a slight accent and was, perhaps, from a foreign country.
I think you'll find that some deaf people are like that because of special training that they could fit into. Otherwise, you'll find that other deaf people can't be understood and training like that went *nowhere* with them. They couldn't get any "feedback" on their speech, must less *understand it*.
"Hearing" (even a little bit) can make a *huge amount of difference*. But many deaf are profoundly deaf and won't benefit from this kind of training. You've probably run into a person that was sorta like my mother. In later years she progressively became more deaf. But she benefitted from some of that early training. My dad was a different matter (and so it is with many other deaf people). No one can understand him (verbally) no matter what he might do. And he wouldn't be able to understand a word from someone else, because he doesn't lip read. And if he did lipread -- he might pick up the words -- but then there would be *translation problems* inherent in that method.
And then you said -- "But then my grandaughter (who will be one in a week) can't say more than 3 words, but she can sign at least that many. My daugher is teaching her ASL, English and Spanish, although the Spanish "instruction" only consists of watching Plaza Sesamo and maybe one or two other shows in Spanish, IOW just letting her hear the sounds. Might as well take advantagge of kids amazing language abilities while they can, is my daughter's attitude. (BTW, my daughter is blue eyed and blond (and a lawyer!) and has been mistaken for a German, by native Germans, on the streets of New York, but speaks fluent Spanish, and not German)."
Well, I seriously doubt that she's learning ASL -- although she is most definitely learning word signs for the deaf. Learning words (in English) and giving them signs -- is not ASL. That's "sign English" -- which will suffice to a degree with the deaf -- if that's the only method you have. The deaf will tolerate you and have patience. Amslan is its own language and it's apparent that your grandaughter is not quite there yet. She may be, but she would have to be *immersed* in it to learn it. Otherwise, she's going to be applying what she "hears" to the "sign English" and learning that instead.
What is your daughter's training in ASL -- may I ask? I would be curious as to why she calls it ASL -- as for what she's teaching her daughter.
Regards,
Star Traveler
Now, do you know anyone that "looks down their noses" at deaf people? I couldn't even begin to think why anyone would.
Sounds like an excuse to me to cop out on participating in the world.
Thanks. I was living in DC at the time so I remember that one.
Rowdy, how?
Yes, deaf people have the same brains as we do, EG, but being born deaf, that portion of the brain which processes aural data essentially "turns off." Tests have demonstrated that the neural patterns of individuals born deaf are "different" in how they process information.
We as hearing people take many many things for granted that deaf people cannot. My mother's best friend was blind, and she once related to me that she would much rather have been born blind than born deaf. She understood the isolation that deaf people experience. Acculturation, communication, socialization - these are things from which, in the hearing world, deaf people are cut off.
I am an interprer for the deaf, and one of my most precious ministries is to interpret for religious services. I can't tell you how many deaf adults have related to me the same experience - that of growing up in a hearing family, being taken to church (with no interpreter), and seeing the gestures, but comprehending nothing else. As a result, when most deaf persons become adults, they abandon religion - it just doesn't mean anything to them. Deaf adults are the most unchurched group of individuals in our society.
There's a very good book - an easy read - about this topic, and I highly recommend it. It's called Deaf Culture Our Way by Roy Holcomb. It's full of anecdotes, written by deaf adults, that try to communicate to hearing people, what it is like to be deaf.
Regards!
Gallaudet isn't the only one. Madonna University in Livonia, Michigan, which I attended, has a superb program for the deaf.
You said -- "Accurately describes it."
I forgot -- "stomping your feet on the floor"... That's another one. Of course, it's got to be hard enough so that everyone in a ten foot radius can feel the floor vibrate.
My dad drives me crazy while I'm driving the car, too. I'll be driving along and then about once every 60 seconds -- "tap, tap, tap" on my arm or leg. I'll glance over and see what it is. Of course, I have to keep driving the car, too.
Then, again -- about a minute later. And again, and again, and again -- until I say "Enough already! Wait until I stop driving..."
And so it goes...
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Now, do you know anyone that "looks down their noses" at deaf people? I couldn't even begin to think why anyone would."
Many people will perceive the deaf people as less capable, as not able to understand things as quickly, as not being as smart, as not comprehending things as easily as others, as (in some cases) somewhat mentally retarded, to be pitied, to be "taken care of" -- and other similar ideas, such as just mentioned.
Would those hearing people *say it*? -- probably not. Would they *act* like it in their mannerisms and how they try (or "don't try") to communicate. More likely by how they act, than what they specifically say.
That would be "looking down their noses" at them. That's what many deaf might feel, depending on the circumstances at the time.
Even my dad might think I think that way at times, when I get exasperated with him about something, and he'll say "I'm just as smart as you are!" And I'll stop and think about what I'm doing and how my interaction indicates that to him. I just realize that there's a "gap" there and it's hard to cross it sometimes.
You also said -- "Sounds like an excuse to me to cop out on participating in the world."
Don't make it out to be more than it is. It's a *reaction* to the types of "interactions" that deaf people have with the hearing world and how they perceive it. We're not constructing a political agenda here -- just explaining the perceptions and interactions.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "You'd think they'd be happy? Not so. It all boils down to, imo, Deaf culture and being a native ASL signer. Tho the vast majority of protesters are denying that this is the case."
I perceive that you're not "as deaf" as the rest of the deaf community -- are you?
I would say that some (in the deaf community) might perceive you as bringing a hearing point (and "leftist" if you will) into a deaf issue.
However, Gallaudet is probably a more rarified university atmosphere than most in the deaf community are used to dealing with. BUT, with thousands of universities for the hearing, Gallaudet is the "one" for the deaf. I suppose that those people, there at Gallaudet, would feel very partial to it.
Regards,
Star Traveler
IMHO, whether a deaf person views hearing people as "opressors" depends to a large part on their individual emotional and/or spiritual maturity. My wife, for example, gets frustrated with the hearing world (from time to time, using yours truly as the punching bag! :-) ), but in our 25 years of marriage, I have *never* heard her refer to the hearing world as populated by "opressors".
There *is* a contingent of deaf persons who hold that viewpoint, they are a minority. As a rough parallel, think of the radical "feminist studies" folks in the universities - that doesn't mean that *all* women think that way.
Again, thanks for contributing to a lively discussion...
They are cut off from one path, but not the others. Otherwise how could I have interacted with my deaf neighbor, since I don't do ASL... she however does lip reading, so all I was required to do was to be sure to face her when I was talking to her, and to not mumble (which is a problem for me anyway).
I am an interprer for the deaf, and one of my most precious ministries is to interpret for religious services. I can't tell you how many deaf adults have related to me the same experience - that of growing up in a hearing family, being taken to church (with no interpreter), and seeing the gestures, but comprehending nothing else.
Yes I can see that being a problem. But one caused the the parents not giving their children the tools necessary to at least partially compensate for their inability to hear, and of churches, unlike your ministry, failure to provided for the special needs of their parishioners. No different, *in principle* from failing to provide wheel chair access to their churches, assuming they have wheelchair bound members of their congregation. I know it wouldn't be easy, and I don't mean to put down deaf people, but there's plenty of examples of people doing it. I also don't really have a problem with them choosing to associate mostly with each other, but find it sad that they would choose to limit themselves that way.
Not so, since many Deaf, deaf and hard of hearing people (though the minority group) do find this whole protest unnecessary and damaging to the image of Gallaudet University. I am not alone in this thinking.
How presumptious of you to say about me having a "hearing" point of view. How wrong you are. "Leftist," maybe, but not a "hearing" point of view in this matter.
Next, Gallaudet University is NOT for Deaf people but for all those who are Deaf, deaf and hard of hearing in an educational setting befitting to them. You can have your ASL and your Deaf culture, but by in of itself Gallaudet University is NOT an exclusive resort for Deaf people only. If it were so, then a Cochlear Implant Education Center would not have been built 6 years ago on campus. Or that a communication policy stating that sign communication will be inclusive, recognizing the individual’s communication needs; respectful of each person’s sign language style; and flexible so that public discourse is fully accessible to everyone. Rather than saying ASL must always be used. There are other kinds of signing preferences. And it should not be denied to those who have a particular preference. I should be able to go to Gallaudet, for example, as a CUED-speech user (rather than signing) and request that Gallaudet provide CUED-speech interpreters for me, I should be able to get accomodated for that. No?
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