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To: Monolight
> John was the last at ~90-120CE.

You do make some assumptions in your post - for example, you state that John's Gospel was the last at circa 90-120 A.D. Your data is based on critical research and it appears you are bringing your theology to your scholarship.

Biblical scholars do not all agree with that at all. Sure, the "Left Behind" series puts Revelation in a 90-95 A.D. timeframe of origin, but historically, the church has thought and taught otherwise.
...
First, let me say this: it's instructive to note that the late dating for Revelation is largely dependant on a single
...
Finally, those who hold that the book of Revelation was written in AD 95 face an even more formidable obstacle! ...

Uhh ... I said the Gospels, the 'Gospel according to John', -- Not the 'The Apocalypse of John' (Revelation).

But since you mentioned it, from Revelations:
' 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. '
- and -
17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The 'seven mountains' are clearly a reference to to Rome. The 'seven kings' are the Roman emperors. Nero Claudius Drusus or Nero was the fifth emperor; and according to text, he has already fallen.
In 69CE the Roman empire was in a state of civil war (the 'Year of Four Emperors') concerning the Julius-Claudian secession. Eventually, Caesar Vespasianus Augustus (Vespasian) was recalled from Judea where he commanded the Roman forces suppressing the Jewish revolt of 66. His son Titus continued the campaign in Judea. So Vespasian was the 6th emperor since Julius Ceasar.
He was succeeded by his eldest son Titus (of sack of Jerusalem fame) in 79. Titus the seventh emperor.
When Titus died (probably by poison), he was succeeded by his younger brother, Titus Flavius Domitianus (or Domitian) in 81CE -- making Domitian the tyrannical eighth emperor.

Vespasian is generally seen as a reformer, removing corrupt officials and promoting the able functionaries -- and notably for repealing Nero's laws concerning treason. It was those laws that affected nascent Christians the most by requiring a sacrifice offering the Emperor-God as a test of loyalty. Disloyalty in Roman times was a very bad thing.

So whether you accept that 'John of Patmos' was the same individual as Apostle John or not. The Book of Revelations is clearly after Nero (the fallen fifth king), after Vespasian (a good guy for repealing the sacrifice laws). And Titus, his son is unremarkable, besides he reigned for less than two years (the seventh king of the short space). So we're at Domitian at 81CE as the terminus a quo. Significatly, Domitian revived the treason laws to use against perceived enemies. And that included 'disloyal' Christians.

St. Jerome and Eusebius put the exile of John during the reign of Domitian.
Polycarp -- bishop of Smyrna, (one of the churches addressed in Revelations), specifically places the exile of 'John of Patmos' in the 14th year of Domitian's reign (as retold by Irenaeus). Clement of Alexandria reports John returned from exile to Ephesus after the death of Domitian.

So the the text itself says it was Domitian (the eighth emperor); the church fathers says it was Domitian.
What's to argue? It was during the reign of Domitian 81-95CE.

And if you take the text seriously, 'was in the isle that is called Patmos', it was after Domitian was assassinated in 96CE.

Okay back on topic: 'Gospel of John'

Consider one of the most amazing prophecies in all of Scripture. Jesus was leaving the Temple one day when his disciples called his attention to its buildings. As they gazed upon its massive stones and magnificent structures, Jesus uttered the unthinkable: "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down....

Except it wasn't prophecy. The 'Christ as the symbolic Temple' theme (and the interpolation in the 'Parable of the Wedding Feast') was developed after the sack of Jerusalem.
'John' in the 'Gospel of John' seems unaware of the existence of the Sadducees. He seems to think the Pharisees are the priestly authority in the (7:45-53; 9:13-38). Which was true after the destruction of the temple, but certainly not in the time of Jesus.
'John' is under the impression that Jesus and his followers we're not permitted in the synagogues (Jn 9:22, 12:42, 16:2), but the expulsions of Christians didn't occur until the Council of Jamnia in 90CE.
John mentions the 'Kingdom of God' just twice. Certainly an odd thing for a Jewish fisherman from Galilean Jew. While not conclusive, it indicates that the fervor of the parousia was waning as the apostles die or killed.

The Gospel was late in coming to be widely known because it originated in the Gnostic community. Naassene Fragment quoted by Hippolytus (Refutation ~120-140), and Valentinian texts comment on it (Clement of Alexandria's c. 140-160). The oldest known fragment of the New Testament, (the John Rylands fragment c. 120-130) was the Gospel of John from Gnostic sources.

I'm not trying to "attack you" in this post but just want to defend my Christian faith as I feel it has been misrepresented by someone who doesn't even espouse the faith any longer!

Not to worry. I don't sense that you're attacking at all.
I just share what I've learned.
I don't intend any attack on Christians or Christianity. I hope you don't feel you need to defend yourself.

100 posted on 04/14/2006 2:00:25 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A dying theory since 1859.)
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To: dread78645
Again, much assumption being made...

For instance, you write:

Uhh ... I said the Gospels, the 'Gospel according to John', -- Not the 'The Apocalypse of John' (Revelation).
and
The 'seven kings' are the Roman emperors. Nero Claudius Drusus or Nero was the fifth emperor; and according to text, he has already fallen.

among other quotes from your post.

Actually, Nero was the sixth emperor. Revelation 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." The five "kings" were not ruling at the same time, for the text stated "five are fallen," meaning that five of those kings had come and gone. Then "one is," meaning the "king" who was ruling at the time Revelation was written. Here, in this verse, we have one of the clearest proofs for Nero being the beast. If we simply examine the list of Roman Emperors, we will be able to determine who the sixth king was. Flavius Josephus clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome, followed by Augustus; Tiberius; Caius (Caligula); Claudius; and the sixth emperor was…Nero (Antiquities, books 18 and 19), who assumed imperial power upon the death of the fifth emperor, Claudius, in October, A.D. 54. The matter is confirmed just a little later in the writings of Roman historians: Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars and Dio Cassius, Roman History 5). Nero reigned from 54AD to June of 68AD. John informs us that the seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power upon Nero's death in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." As a matter of historical fact, his reign lasted but six months until January 15, A.D. 69. So anyway, that my rendering of the text, history, and theology.
103 posted on 04/17/2006 9:07:02 AM PDT by Monolight
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