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To: puroresu
Again, either God had something to do with how we got here, or He didn't. Evolutionists here constantly assert that science says nothing one way or the other about the existence of God. I fully agree with that. But the evolutionists then contradict themselves by asserting that any suggestion that God had anything whatsoever to do with anything is unscientific.

What's going on here is that science insists -- and ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOING SCIENCE -- on operational naturalism. IOW you're not allowed to insert the step, "then a miracle occurs," into your scientific theory. If you could do that then any theory with such an element becomes invicibly ad hoc, since a "miracle" can by definition accomplish pretty much any needed end.

It seems that either you're refusing, or you're claiming that scientists covertly refuse, to make a distinction between operational naturalism (which is basically an acknowledgment of the properly limited aims and capabilities of science) and philosophical naturalism (the assertion that the "creaturely" universe is all there is). Some scientists do conflate operational and philosophical naturalism, having in mind individuals like E.O. Wilson or Dawkins, but most don't and I don't think it's a fair characterization of scientists generally. Certainly creationists are FAR MORE likely to conflate the two than are evolutionists.

338 posted on 04/18/2006 2:06:21 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Stultis

#####It seems that either you're refusing, or you're claiming that scientists covertly refuse, to make a distinction between operational naturalism (which is basically an acknowledgment of the properly limited aims and capabilities of science) and philosophical naturalism (the assertion that the "creaturely" universe is all there is).#####


I fully understand the distiction between operational and philosophical naturalism. That's why I noted above that Newton was not in violation of the rules of science when he suggested that God created the universe and its laws, and proceeded to study the universe and those laws.


####Some scientists do conflate operational and philosophical naturalism, having in mind individuals like E.O. Wilson or Dawkins, but most don't and I don't think it's a fair characterization of scientists generally. Certainly creationists are FAR MORE likely to conflate the two than are evolutionists.####


Most scientists probably don't confuse the two, but the ones that are very active in the evo-crevo wars usually do. I doubt that most scientists would object to my earlier suggestion that five minutes be spent at the beginning of the semester explaining that science can neither confirm nor refute God's existence, and that the universe may or may not be dependent on God. But the activist evolutionist scientists would be in court in no time. To them, an acknowledgement that science cannot refute God's existence is the same thing as telling the kiddies that God exists, and they can't tolerate that. Science, to them, must assume God doesn't exist.

As for creationists confusing the two (operational and philosophical) more than scientists, it depends on which scientists we're talking about. Creationists don't confuse the two any more than most politically active evolutionists.

Doesn't theistic evolution confuse operational and philosophical naturalism? Yet, the evolutionists here promote it constantly as a way that Christians can both believe in God and accept evolution. Of course,, as they give with one hand, they take away with another, as they also won't allow theistic evolution to be taught in the schools.


340 posted on 04/18/2006 3:11:12 PM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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