"When I saw somebody write that the Irish have killed more in Ireland than the British, "and the British security forces have only killed a couple dozen!!" I felt obliged to voice a contrary opinion. My ancestors were subject to the penal laws."
Oh well, looks like we could have avoided the whole debate if whoever had said ""and the British security forces have only killed a couple dozen!!" " had just added the line "since the 1970s."!
I too have enjoyed the debate. I took the bait and it is always good to revist your beliefs - our conversation has just reaffirmed in my mind that modern Britain's approach to Northern Ireland (since the 1990s particualry) has been magnaminious to the point of almost going too far.
Like you, my ancestory left due to the troubles so I don't have direct 'skin in the game' but I do think of my ancestors memory. I am a third generation Brit, and we no longer have the constant subconcious worry on the mainland that a trip to the shops or the pub will end in maiming or death thanks to the IRA (just as that subconious fear went we get the damn Islamofascists to fill gap).
I don't even think it is unreasonable to take a view of history that draws attention to the 'ugly' side of the Colonial/Empire period of British history - if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. But I have always maintained that history is just to learn from not to live in. We live in the here and now and a Christian tennant of both Catholic and Protestant agreement is you don't blame the sons for the sins of the father.
Incidentally, whilst I would not argue against a reading of history that included 'the ugly side' of the Colonial/Empire years of Britain (a side that Americans took exception to and sorted out quickly enough!) - perhaps I am being overally romantic in saying that, overall, in that Period of British Great Power (which ended with us bankrupting ourselves in the fight with the Nazi's) we were, on balance, a net force for good in the shaping of the modern world.....
I am proud of far more than I am ashamed of in Britain's historic contribution to the world. And that doubles for Modern Britain. For all its quirks and faults and some odd political views chunks of the population here have - it still aint a bad old place!
All the best.
I do agree that the British have done much good around the world. The heroism of the Brits during WWII in defeating Hitler (with a little help from across the pond) was astounding, and still gives me shivers when I think of what was achieved. That is also why I feel a United States led mostly by Western Europeans has made far greater contributions to civilization than the Native Indian population could ever have dreamed.
However, I still feel the single greatest ‘black eye’ on the British legacy was Henry the VIII leaving the Church to get a divorce (and the Church’s wealth), which lead to the disastrous 800 year occupation of Ireland and continues today in the North. I don’t think the English would have treated fellow Catholics in Ireland so miserably had religion not entered into the equation. The only good thing to come out of the occupation was the fact that so many Irish left, and increased their numbers throughout the world.