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To: ModelBreaker
Thoughtful post. I would prefer states have their constitutional power, yes. So we agree there. Katrina is a good example of a total failure at the local and state level and so (the parental types on both sides) the misplaced blame of the federal government. We make a huge mistake if we make the decision that the federal level ought to protect and care for cities and towns. The feds will always bungle it and, in the end, never take responsiblity. No one cares for your home or your city like you do.

To me it is the same kind of thinking (parental) that says that the government ought to decide *how* people live their lives (their moral values). And it is just as dangerous and those who want economic socialism.

This article points to a real problem. Many people on the right absolutely do want to control others and shove their religion down the rest of our throats. For so many to deny that on this thread - tells me that they don't even see it. They are just so sure they are right - that they cannot even *see* that they are advocating taking away others' rights and privacy.

63 posted on 04/02/2006 10:20:57 AM PDT by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
They are just so sure they are right - that they cannot even *see* that they are advocating taking away others' rights and privacy.

Generally speaking, I think *they* could agree that a proscriptive law makes inaccessible some sort of personal liberty. There has never been a successful sustained government that did not do this. And since the absence of government, anarchy, is as bad or worse than having no freedom at all, tradeoffs are definitely necessary. Let us agree that, some problems aside like Campaign Finance Reform shredding the First Amendment, under the status quo individual liberties are sufficiently sancrosanct. Within that framework, various political forces will advocate various laws including proscriptive ones - in all cases, it will be argued (sometimes speciously) that a citizen's ability to pursue happiness is best served. These questions can never be settled and will forever be the subject of politics as long as the republic shall exist.

All that said, most policy preferences of social conservatives can definitely be argued in a way that would deflect your charge.

64 posted on 04/02/2006 12:13:00 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Sunsong
This article points to a real problem. Many people on the right absolutely do want to control others and shove their religion down the rest of our throats. For so many to deny that on this thread - tells me that they don't even see it. They are just so sure they are right - that they cannot even *see* that they are advocating taking away others' rights and privacy.

I will be quite straighforward about it. I believe the state must return to regulation of morals, as it did for the first 170 years of our nation's existence. I don't believe that regulation would be a good thing in and of itself. Rather, I have become reasonably convinced that men cannot have a stable, safe or useful society without it, especially a capitalist society.

Social libertarianism, in which I once was a great believer, has failed completely. Look at every statistic on the things that glue a culture together-marriage, family, sobriety, violence--they are grim. The 21 year olds my wife supervises are completely without a moral tether and they don't even know it. The notion is alien to them.

In part, social libertarianism may just be a reflection of a deeper breakdown--a convenient excuse to do whatever you want with whomever you want or to have convenient access to pictures of women's genitals on the internet. But there's a good chance it is the central idea that has powered the trip over the cliff our culture has taken since the 60's.

It's really the combination of the marketing power of capitalism and social libertarianism that is the toxic brew. Capitalism is amoral. It will exploit any human trait to sell stuff. Since the 60's, capitalism has been loosed from its marketing fetters and now explicitly markets to each of the, dare I say, seven deadly sins. It has been a progressive change, each step setting up the conditions for the next. Human nature is not such that it can, or even wants to, resist that onslaught.

What I am saying is that we have to choose between moral and economic freedom. They cannot coexist stably for long. And I am also saying the founding fathers made the best compromise possible between them.

And the compromise really wasn't so bad. People have been doing perverted things all along and the police have almost always looked the other way as long as they kept it private and discreet. In other words, the only real burden on the pervert or the heroin addict was to hide the problem, thereby admitting, in a sense that their behavior was, dare I say again, sinful. If you really wanted a divorce, you could get it; but it was painful and you carried the social stigma for decades. If you really wanted an abortion, they could be had. As long as perversion and bad decisions stayed in the dark, they were tacitly accepted.

That compromise is long gone. Perversion is public and celebrated--have you ever seen a gay parade or talked to a homosexual man about what goes on in bathhouses? Divorce is something you do to 'grow' and is about as difficult to get as a stroll in the park. Abortion is a sacred constitutional right and taxpayers pay to make sure that poor people can kill their kids with the same freedom as the wealthy. And, Abercrombie and Fitch do marketing campaigns that might as well be explicit child pornography while teenage girls stop female porn stars at the mall and ask for their autographs.

I would greatly prefer a society that was, at core, libertarian in all spheres. I see now that, in the sphere of morals, down that path lies William Golding's vision. I see our society going there fast. Put simply, I have had to change my thinking as the facts come in--and one fact is clear, our experiment since the 50's and 60's with moral libertarianism has been a complete failure. Our founding father's wisdom, divinely inspired in my opinion, is once again driven home to me. They worked it out about as well as a society can be designed and we have tossed their work in the crapper.

71 posted on 04/03/2006 4:41:21 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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