Colo. School Bans Flags Amid Protests - Principal Says Students Used Flags To Taunt Others

WCBSTV ^

[Sub-Driver]

Colo. School Bans Flags Amid Protests Principal Says Students Used Flags To Taunt Others

(CBS) LONGMONT, Colo. Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag, as well as flags from other countries, amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.

Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown into the face of another student.

"When it involves the American flag and its abuse in vilifying other people, we simply will not tolerate it," Stumpf said. "They were using the symbol derisively as misguided patriotism."

Students were warned about the policy Friday and several were suspended, although Stumpf would not provide details. Then, about 100 students protested during lunch time.

Student Dustin Carlson told the KCNC-TV, the CBS station in Denver, that he was suspended for two days.

"I'm getting suspended for it and personally I think that's uncalled for," he said. "If this country means freedom, then why can't we fly our own flag? It's ridiculous."

[MACVSOG68]

How do we know this was the case? Do you have inside knowledge? Or just based on principal Stumpf's opinion? Should the pro-American flag students just behaved like sheeple and kept their heads down while Mexican flags are flying all about them in their own country?

I will ask you the same question. Do you have any information which refutes what the principal said? If not, from all of the reports I have seen, he was trying to deescalate a situation that was moving toward violence, which was his responsibility to do. He believed as he stated that the US flags were being used to intimidate and were not being treated with respect. Had the flag holders merely been holding the flags and not shoving them into peoples' faces, fine. But that does not appear to have been the case.

In answer to your second point, no, students do not have to behave like "sheeple", but I do not know what started it, do you? And in any case, when confronting people, do not make the US flag part of your tool chest. Keep it far enough away so it does not become involved in the confrontation. And do not use it to intimidate or harass anyone. It seems the principal was trying to convey that message and to cool things down.

[daybreakcoming]

Do you have any information which refutes what the principal said?

LOL at your attempt to spin it without answering MY questions? I will repeat them "How do we know this was the case? Do you have inside knowledge? Or just based on principal Stumpf's opinion?" Pay close attention to the my first question please.

Based on your many worded answer, I believe you are basing it on the msm report of the principal's words. Amazing that you take such a stance based on a man that I assume you are not personally acquainted with - but kneejerk responses are becoming all too common here.
If you would rather spin than answer questions, I don't care to discuss further.

[wintertime]

I believe you are incorrect, courts have ruled numerous times that students do not lose their constitutional rights when they enter a school.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And,,,,,this is why we must begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

Children can NOT have their First Amendment rights trampled by government any more than adults, and this is true in government owned and run schools as well.

What is the real problem here?

The problem is, that to maintain order and safety, a school MUST restrict free speech, free press, free expression of religion, and especially free assembly. Since government schools can not simultaneously respect freedoms and maintain order,,,,well....that is why we have chaotic government schools.

There is NO solution to the problem. Government schools CAN NOT, never could, and never will be able to respect First Amendment Rights and have safe, orderly, and effective schools. IMPOSSIBLE!

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

[MACVSOG68]

LOL at your attempt to spin it without answering MY questions? I will repeat them "How do we know this was the case? Do you have inside knowledge? Or just based on principal Stumpf's opinion?"

I saw three accounts of the incident. I am assuming that the principal's account is correct until I see something that says it is not. If it is not correct, I'm sure that information will be forthcoming. Now, perhaps you could answer mine?

Amazing that you take such a stance based on a man that I assume you are not personally acquainted with

And you have better information? As I said, if better information comes out that shows the US flag was not being used in an intimidating way, I may change my opinion. Sounds like you have some pretty firm inside information. Perhaps you might enlighten us.

but kneejerk responses are becoming all too common here.

You got that right. Most here immediately decided that the principal is an anti-American, US flag hating, liberal. I'm not at all sure where they got that from. I looked at the first 5 threads on this and yes, it appears to be little more than a bunch of knee jerk DU types, incapable of serious discussion, castigating anyone foolish enough to suggest that maybe there's another side to it.

If you would rather spin than answer questions, I don't care to discuss further.

So far it appears I am the only one answering anything here, either for you or others.

[MACVSOG68]

Well, as I said in response to the post you referred to, students do not have unfettered free speech rights, especially when they threaten good order. When a principal does try and control a situation he is excoriated on threads such as this. When things get totally out of control, similar threads will condemn the school administration for letting it happen.

[SeaBiscuit]

I'd bet this creep Stumpfool would have no problem if the students had burned the American Flag instead of displaying it.

[LibertarianInExile]

"You don't ban the flag as a response, you punish the kids that acted up not the flag."

That is this whole situation in a nutshell.

I don't care that a bunch of illegal SOBs went marching all over town with the Mexican flag. I care that there are people here illegally marching in broad daylight and our police do nothing.

I don't care that a bunch of students went marching all over town with the Mexican flag...or the American flag. I care that there are students here screwing around, out of school during school hours, in broad daylight and the principal and truant officers do nothing.

[jeremiah]

Listen up guy, I just came from a birthday party for my youngest daughter. She was 21 today. Her mother, mothers best friends, two sisters, and couple of friends, me and my wife of two years. OK, long ago divorce, like '87 or so. Anyway, in the middle of a few drinks, they tell her about a tradition, of the B'day girl drinking a BJ, she is supposed to crawl across the floor, and drink a shot out of the glass balanced on a strangers lap. Of course I threw a rod, everybody else decide that I was wrong. Is the world upside down? I brought up my father, mother, g mother and father, my grand daughters name, I was sent home with a fanfare. Am I wrong, or are they wrong, or is something just flat effed up? I know the answer, just looking for some validation. so sorry.....I will NOT sleep well tonite.

[devolve]

[King Prout]

lengthy thread, same topic, different article:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1607726/posts

[wintertime]

students do not have unfettered free speech rights, especially when they threaten good order.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Students have the same First Amendment rights as adults.

Can you see? The reason there is disorder is due to the fact the government school can not do two things at once. It can not respect student's First Amendment Rights and maintain order.

The solution is to privatized universal K-12 education.

[wintertime]

In its landmark decision, Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community School Dist. (1969), the U.S. Supreme Court, in what has become a much-quoted statement, ruled that neither "students [n]or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

Read the Court's Tinker decision

http://www.splc.org/quiz2.asp

[MACVSOG68]

Students have the same First Amendment rights as adults.

As I said before, their rights end when good order is threatened, as it was in this case. BTW, if you think adults have unfettered 1st Amendment rights, walk into a court room and try them out some time.

Can you see? The reason there is disorder is due to the fact the government school can not do two things at once. It can not respect student's First Amendment Rights and maintain order.

No, actually I can't see that. There are times when free speech must take a back seat. When the rights of others are threatened or order is in jeopardy, then the free speech that is causing the problem must be halted.

I believe, given all the reports I have seen, that the principal did the correct thing, and brought order to a dangerous situation. I'm not sure what a private contract principal would have done differently.

[wintertime]

I believe, given all the reports I have seen, that the principal did the correct thing, and brought order to a dangerous situation. I'm not sure what a private contract principal would have done differently.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Private schools have no need to respect First Amendment rights. They are PRIVATE. They are freely chosen. For this reason it is unlikely that conditions would have escalated to the point seen in this Arizona school.

The reason government schools are chaotic is that courts have repeatedly ruled in favor of student First Amendment rights. Well...what do you expect? Of course there will be disorder!It is impossible to maintain a safe and orderly school without restricting speech, press, assembly,and expression of religion. The poor beleaguered government school principal, in trying to be neutral, bans all flags, and in doing so steps in 1st Amendment dog pooh!

The solution: Begin the process of privatizing K-12 education and a lot of this nonsense will cease and order and learning will prevail in our nation's ( private) schools.

[MACVSOG68]

In its landmark decision, Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community School Dist. (1969), the U.S. Supreme Court, in what has become a much-quoted statement, ruled that neither "students [n]or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

You may want to read the decision in its totality. The court found no direct connection between the passive wearing of armbands and disorder. That is simply not the case here, and in the case you refer to, the courts made clear that school officials do have the authority to curtail free speech that threatens order.

[wintertime]

BTW, if you think adults have unfettered 1st Amendment rights, walk into a court room and try them out some time.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Courts are not schools.

For the most part, it is entirely possible for people to conduct their lives so that they never in their lives step inside a court. I venture to say that most people do this.

This is NOT the case for government schools. It is likely that very few of the student's in the Arizona high school have the option of homeschooling or private schooling. For them, if they refuse to cooperate with government school officials they WILL be imprisoned. The same is true for their parents if they push that far.

[wintertime]

That is simply not the case here, and in the case you refer to, the courts made clear that school officials do have the authority to curtail free speech that threatens order

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I contend that if there were no government schools we would not be seeing this type of disorderly conduct, or fretting about First Amendment rights.

Why? Because students in private schools have NO First Amendment rights as it pertains to their PRIVATE school!

I also contend that private schools have the right to intervene LONG before it would have reached this point. They can do this precisely because they do not need to observe student First Amendment rights.

Again! Solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

[MACVSOG68]

For the most part, it is entirely possible for people to conduct their lives so that they never in their lives step inside a court. I venture to say that most people do this.

I merely pointed out that the First Amendment is relative, not absolute.

For them, if they refuse to cooperate with government school officials they WILL be imprisoned. The same is true for their parents if they push that far.

I dare say only if they break the law, either the student or the parent. But I cannot see what privatization of the school system does for the Colorado case. The principal would likely have done the same thing, yes, perhaps earlier, but a similar tactic nonetheless. And both would have been right.

[MACVSOG68]

I contend that if there were no government schools we would not be seeing this type of disorderly conduct, or fretting about First Amendment rights.

Well, perhaps not the fretting, but why not the disorderly conduct? Kids will be kids after all. Why would privatization change anything?

Again! Solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

I don't exactly understand where you are going with this. There are plenty of private schools today at all levels, as well as home schooling. Who pays for the total bill for all those unable to cover the tuition of a private school?