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To: MarkL
We are NOT predestined in any way, shape or form.

At the moment our daddy's sperm penetrates or mommy's egg, we are predestined. The genes we inherit from them determine:

-->Our gender.

--> Whether or not we are shy or outgoing; leaders or followers; intelligent or not; our talents and aptitudes; if we are jocks or nerds, all of which strongly determines many of the choices we make in life.

--> Whether or not we will be physically good-looking; tall or short; white, brown or black; strong or weak; fast or slow, etc., all of which makes a huge difference in how we are treated by others throughout our lives.

--> Our general health, and whether or not we will be born with any of a wide range of birth defects.

--> The rate at which we age, even much of how we age.

--> Studies of identical twins raised apart show that even our likes and dislikes, the jobs we're likely to gravitate toward, even the choice of clothes we wear all have a strong genetic component.

The parents and family to whom we're born predestine us. Who we're born to determines:

--> Our race and ethnicity.

--> Our religious proclivities.

--> Our world view and attitudes toward a great many things, ranging from what food we eat, to how we view the opposite sex, to our view of other people, other nations, and even our view of politics.

--> What kind of childhood we will have; whether or not it will be comfortable and protected, or brutal, painful and even short.

--> Our educational and job opportunties; in some societies, even who we can and will marry.

--> Whether or not any latent talents we may have are discovered and nurtured.

--> Whether or not we will be only children or have siblings.

The society and culture into which we are born predetermines us. For example, children born in, say, Saudi Arabia or Nigeria are predestined to have a very different future from people born in England or the United States. Heck, even in 2006, girl babies in many parts of the world are predestined to have miserable lives of near slavery, with their clitorises cut out as they approach puberty (equivalent to cutting off the male penis).

All of the above acts on us from the moment we are concieved, throughout our childhoods, and shape almost everything about us. We have free will only within the genetic, parental, family, societal, cultural and national boxes into which we are born.

You can screech BULLS**T all you want, but the truth is unassailable.

215 posted on 04/02/2006 9:54:03 AM PDT by Wolfstar (You can't tell me it all ends in a slow ride in a hearse...No, this can't be all there is...)
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To: Wolfstar
You know, you're absolutely right... There's no point to putting forth any sort of effort to change your conditions. Because it's all predestined, and we have nearly no control over our own futures...

I guess that I didn't have a choice when I dropped out of highschool. Because I was predestined to do so. Of course, never mind that I was the first child of my generation im my family to NOT complete a college degree. Or, maybe I was predestined to go back to highschool, and graduate on time, having to double up on some classes. Maybe a highschool buddy of mine, who received an appointment to West Point, as well as being accepted to both MIT and Stanford, was always destined to work at the car wash that he came home to after his first semester at West Point.

Where we're born and who we're born to have major impacts on our lives. But you seem to be saying that there's no control over even that aspect of your life. If that were the case, then I shouldn't have ever been born, since my grandfather immigrated to the US, legally, of course, in the 1930s. I wonder how it is that he managed to immigrate, since he couldn't have had that level of control over his life... I guess it was just predestined. Of course, many of his neighbors were predestined NOT to immigrate, and they died during WWII.

Look, if it makes you feel better to think that you are helpless and your life is out of control, then fine, more power to you. I just hope that you are never in a position where something happens to you that requires a change in what it is you're doing. But let's take a closer look, shall we?

-->Our gender.

Ya got me there! Without major surgery, you can't change that!

--> Whether or not we are shy or outgoing; leaders or followers; intelligent or not; our talents and aptitudes; if we are jocks or nerds, all of which strongly determines many of the choices we make in life.

Shyness can be overcome. Many leaders are not aware of their abilities until leadership is needed. How many people really thought that President Bush would ever be a great leader before September 11, 2001? In many cases, leadership can be brought out, as we've seen over and over again, in the military.

--> Our general health, and whether or not we will be born with any of a wide range of birth defects.

Again, correct. But many birth defects can be overcome, as can health problems. Ever hear of Steven Hawking?

--> The rate at which we age, even much of how we age.

True again, but what does this have to do with having control over your life, or your situation?

--> Studies of identical twins raised apart show that even our likes and dislikes, the jobs we're likely to gravitate toward, even the choice of clothes we wear all have a strong genetic component.

Sure, there are going to be similarities. But are you saying that identical twins who are raised apart have no control over their lives, and therefor must have the same outcomes in their lives? How does that square with your other assertion that we're chained to how we're raised?

--> Our race and ethnicity.

You're right here, of course. If you're of a certain race or ethnicity, you have no chance of becoming a success. All Asians will be math whizes. All Jews are going to be rich. All Hispanics will be mowing lawns. All Blacks will be... Well, do I really need to continue beating this dead horse?

--> Our religious proclivities.

Really!?!?! Nobody's ever changed their religion from how they were raised? Didn't Madeline O'Hare's son become a practicing Christian? How about that Afgahni, who converted from islam to Christianity? Even under the pain of death, he refused to convert back.

Look, you're welcome to believe anything you want, and if believing that you're helpless, just floating down the river of life, then I pity you.

Mark

217 posted on 04/02/2006 10:28:47 AM PDT by MarkL (When Kaylee says "No power in the `verse can stop me," it's cute. When River says it, it's scary!)
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