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To: Doc91678

Well, this is where we part ways.

I think the Europeans are bluffing. At the end of the day, they so fatally tied themselves to the UN in the Iraq War episode, that no European government dares to do anything without the UN. The European people bought the whole "UN uber alles" arguments that their governments or opposition parties were spewing, and they believe it. Their governments cannot go to war without the UN.
And China will veto anything done against Iran.
So, the UN will NEVER authorize the use of force.
And that means that Europe will not move.

The US is battle fatigued. The left will oppose anything.
And even the right is divided. The lesson I draw from the War On Terror is that American must NEVER go to war again without respecting the Constitution and getting a full, formal declaration of war. Period. No declaration of war, no war, because we can't WIN undeclared wars. They turn into guerillas, and we wear out, because we can't commit the murder we need to in order to win.

I don't see the people of the US supporting a war against Iran. The well's too poisoned now.

The ayatollah's are crazy, but so's Kim Jong Mentally-Ill, and we let him get the bomb because he was willing to accept war in order to get it, but we weren't willing to go to war to stop it.

It's the same thing with Iran.
Unfortunately.
It didn't need to be this way.
I'd love to go back and resurrect all of my arguments back in September, 2001. I was at World Trade, and survived that day; got home covered with white soot. And I was screaming them "We must DECLARE WAR!" You have GOT to get the declaration, because then the President has unlimited power, opposing the war is sedition, censorship prevents the bad stories from damaging morale, and nobody gives a crap (or knows) about Abu Graibs or bombing cities flat. Civilian casualties are a given, and the information cycle is not competitive: opposing a declared war effectively is a criminal offense. You can also move much more swiftly. The President had to ask to go into Afghanistan. He had to ask to go into Iraq. He will have to ask to go into Iran. He has to keep on asking for more money. Declare war, and the President simply issues orders, open fronts as necessary. Also, in September, 2001, NATO was ready to invoke Article 16 and come in with the US. The alliance was solid then, and once Article 16 was invoked, there was no going back, and no careful explanation needed.

But we DIDN'T.

And now we're in the position where we have to try and build political will to attack Iran. Not without a declaration of war. We have made that error over and over again. Not again.


64 posted on 03/16/2006 3:28:48 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Vicomte13
No we didn't part ways. I said that China and Russia would oppose any action taken by the UN. They would veto any passage of censure or aggression against Iran. But Iran will attack Israel and more than likely the US with their nukes. When that occurs there will be total annihilation of Iran. Pakistan might make a move with Iran. This will only bring in more destruction. However, the US will probably suffer huge fatalities in the process. Both Russia and China would relish this thought and would move into power. Then try to dictate to the rest of the world. As far as Europe is concerned, yes, there are very frightened of what they have wrought in the Mid East. Whether they react or not is moot.
65 posted on 03/16/2006 4:19:48 PM PST by Doc91678 (Doc91678)
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