Posted on 03/06/2006 7:13:02 AM PST by CarrotAndStick
All of us have our biases (and that includes you, Kenavi). The difference is that some of us accept our biases and are open about it while others claim to be objective while pushing an agenda.
I have NEVER masked my dislike for the communists including the ChiComs. It is interesting that you are using the similar anti-Semite charge that people like you use when anybody criticizes **specific** actions of the Israeli govt. I don't need to defend myself against these charges because they are so ridiculous (see my posting history if you want to; this is the FIRST time I have ever criticized the Israeli govt. for antything). Apparently, even this minor criticism is too much for your sensibilities.
Geez....
They would have, but the USS Liberty got out one message, unclassified, about the attack before it lost all communications. Once the message got out, all bets were off. They couldn't cover it up.
Additionally the ship was sent to help them by monitoring the enemy and those are the words from your own link. An interesting subject and a sad day no matter how you slice it. I'm not a consipiracy buff however and believe the truth in most 'conspiracies' is often boring and a result of ignorance or errors.
The ship was not sent to help them, but gather intelligence for us. The most disturbing part of this was the repeated attacks even after there was no doubt that the Liberty demonstrated was an American ship. The torpedo boats were practically alongside and a helicopted hovered 50 feet over the fantail. Given the circumstances, I am not about to give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt.
Unless you're just ignorant, Israel has ceased weapons sale to China for over a year due to US pressure. However, when US decides to sell nuclear stuff to India, it basically said to the Israelis that while you can't sell to China, we can sell to India. Israelis don't like that at all.
Hence, when the deal is signed between US and India, literally, the next day, Israel announced resumption of weapon sales. Of course they won't say they're linked, but the message is obvious.
You can't trust the Indians to not proliferate their stuff to other countries, just as you can't trust China or Pakistan. All it takes is one corrupt official, and India has plenty.
1/2 of the Taiwan people are AGAINST Taiwan independence, you seem to forget that.
As far as gbeing Pro-Indian - no, you're just like those Indians with huge inferiority complex that anyone who criticizes India, or who makes the obvious case of what's going on in the country, you'd automatically bash them. That's who you are.
Wow! Is that script written by your commissar agent?
" Ever been to a Chinese language internet forum?"
Yep plenty including the rascist anti-Indian and anti-Japanese ones.
"There are tons of discussions on democracy and free speech made by the Chinese middle class; censorship can only go so far. "
Really?
B)Even assuming it was not an acciddent, it does not serve to establish a history of attacks on US interests. At best it is an isolated incedent.
C)Even assuming it was not an accident, the incedent occurred under a different administration, realtions since the incedent have been fine, and very peaceful.
D)The whole incedent is less relevant than the JFK 'conspiracy'.
I say leave the past in the past. Were we at war with Japan? Are we now? Do we want to build a base in Japan?
"As far as gbeing Pro-Indian Chicom - no, you're just like those Indians chicoms with huge inferiority complex that anyone who criticizes India,china or who makes the obvious case of what's going on in the country, you'd automatically bash them. That's who you are."
LOL! Pot meet kettle.
The Israeli Defense Forces Chief Military Prosecutor, immediately following the attack, filed formal charges recommending court martial proceedings against a number of Israeli military personnel.[36] Prior to the start of court martial proceedings, the IDF turned the matter over to an examining judge to confirm that the prosecution should go forward. The examining judge disagreed with United States position that the attack was "an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life" and announced his finding that:
"Yet I have not discovered any deviation from the standard of reasonable conduct which would justify the committal [sic] of anyone for trial." [37]
As a result of this blanket absolution, no one in the Israeli government or military has received so much as a reprimand for their involvement in the attack,[38] much less the punishment demanded by the United States ("the United States Government expects the Government of Israel also to take the disciplinary measures which international law requires in the event of wrongful conduct by the military personnel of a State").
Within 24 hours of the attack, the United States Navy convened a formal Court of Inquiry into that attack – a standard investigative procedure reserved for such serious events or circumstances. This procedure was unusual in only one respect – the President and members appointed to the Court of Inquiry by the Commander in Chief, U.S. Naval Forces, Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), headquartered in London, were directed orally by the appointing authority to conduct and complete their investigative proceedings within one week – a most unusual requirement in light of the nature and magnitude of the events they were ordered to investigate.
Convening initially in London, the Court proceeded immediately to the Mediterranean and conducted its inquiry both aboard USS Liberty as she limped under escort to Malta, and in succeeding days as she lay in drydock there. Concluding their inquiries there, the President of the Court, with the Navy Judge Advocate General’s Corps officer who had been appointed as Counsel to the Court, and with a Navy court reporter who had been assigned from the London headquarters to assist, returned to London on June 16, 1967 (eight days after the attack), with their results.
At London, the Navy court reporter supervised the final production of a written record of the Court’s proceedings and findings – a document over 600 typewritten pages in length. On the afternoon of June 17, 1967, that record of the Court’s proceedings was delivered to the senior Navy Judge Advocate General’s Corps officer on the CINCUSNAVEUR staff for his review and recommendation to the appointing authority concerning his required endorsement and action upon the Court’s proceedings and record. The CINCUSNAVEUR Staff Judge Advocate thus charged with that review – in full compliance and accord with standard Navy requirements and practice – turned immediately to his detailed examination and consideration of the record. He continued that process steadily into the early morning hours of June 18, 1967, then after a four hour rest break resumed his review at 6:00 AM on June 18th.
In the midforenoon of June 18th an emissary from his Commander, the appointing authority, appeared and inquired of the Staff Judge Advocate concerning the status of his review and when it might be expected to be completed. The Staff Judge Advocate advised that he had by then read only about a third of the record – that there were many clerical and typographical flaws in the record that should be remedied before it was formally forwarded to the high governmental authorities who undoubtedly awaited it – that, more importantly, the reviewer had not yet been able to find, in the parts of the record he had so far reviewed, testimony or other evidence to support some of the Court’s stated conclusions – and that he could not yet estimate when he could complete his review and recommendations but was continuing to devote himself solely to that task.
The emissary from the appointing authority departed with that information then returned about 20 minutes later with the message that CINCUSNAVEUR, the appointing authority had directed him to come and get the Court’s record from the Staff Judge Advocate and bring it back to the appointing authority. The Staff Judge Advocate accordingly surrendered the record to the emissary exactly as he had received it; he was neither then nor later asked for any of his work or opinions so far; and he had no further contact with the Court of Inquiry or its results at any time in his active Navy career.[39] The records of the Navy Department reveal that the written record of proceedings of the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry into the Israeli attack upon USS Liberty was formally submitted by the President of the Court of Inquiry to CINCUSNAVEUR, the appointing authority by a written letter dated 18 June 1967, the very day that the record had been withdrawn by the appointing authority from his Staff Judge Advocate. The written record also reveals that the appointing authority, on that same day, placed upon that record of the Court’s proceedings, a five-page First Endorsement, transmitting that Record to the Judge Advocate General of the Navy in Washington as required by the Navy’s investigative procedures.[40]
Mr. Secretary, it is respectfully submitted that, even based solely upon the facts and circumstances outlined above, the Navy Court of Inquiry into the Israeli attack on USS Liberty – the sole official investigation by the United States Government into that attack – was deficient and prejudiced, even at its outset, by the unreasonable haste imposed informally by the appointing authority. In addition, the processing of that Court’s hasty result was further compromised by its peremptory withdrawal from its initial and prescribed legal review in the field, and its hurried transmission to the seat of the U.S. Government under cover of a purported official endorsement that could not conceivably have been based upon even a cursory complete review of even the hasty work of the Navy Court of Inquiry. Inexplicably, the Court record was classified Top Secret and withheld from public scrutiny for many years.
In addition to all of that, however, the Judge Advocate General’s Corps officer who was appointed to serve as Counsel to the Navy Court of Inquiry – the officer charged with certifying the authenticity of the Court’s record – has examined a copy of the record of that Court of Inquiry that has since been released by the Government under the Freedom of Information Act and has pronounced it a fraud, and not the record that he had certified and submitted [41]. Furthermore, the President of the Court of Inquiry, following his departure from London with the record on 18 June 1967, his personal delivery of the record to officials in Washington, and his return to his regular duty post in Italy, informed the officer who had served as Counsel to the Court of Inquiry that the Court’s record of its proceedings had been altered, in his presence, by civilian Government attorneys following its submission. [42]
The Central Intelligence Agency issued an "interim" report on the attack, dated June 13, 1967 (five days after the attack and five days before the apparent completion of the Navy’s abbreviated Court of Inquiry). The heavily redacted copy of the CIA’s report that has been released to the public does not state a conclusion, but suggests that, based on the information available as of the date of the report, the Israeli forces may not have known that they were attacking an American ship.[43]
Writing in his memoirs, Richard Helms, the Director of Central Intelligence at the time of the attack, explained that the Central Intelligence Agency undertook a "final" investigation after more evidence became available, and he offered the following information concerning the CIA’s final finding:[44]
"Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack." [Emphasis added]
The Official Position of the United States
Despite the repeated claims by the government of Israel and its American apologists, in the nearly 40 years since Israel forces attacked USS Liberty, there has been one and only one American position: "There is every reason to believe the USS Liberty was identified...by Israeli aircraft...before the attack" and (therefore) "as a minimum the attack must be condemned as an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life." This position was conveyed to the government of Israel on June 10, 1967, by the United States Secretary of State, in a letter which demanded appropriate amends, disciplinary action and corrective measures. That official statement has never been rescinded, revised, cancelled or contradicted in any way, private statements by individuals in and out of government notwithstanding.
The following is the full statement expressing the official position of the Untied States:
"The Secretary of State presents his compliments to His Excellency the Ambassador of Israel and has the honor to refer to the Ambassador's note of June 10, 1967, concerning the attack by Israeli aircraft and torpedo boats on the United States naval vessel U.S.S. Liberty, which was carried out at 1605 and 1625 hours local time [sic], respectively, on June 8, 1967, while the U.S.S. Liberty was engaged in peaceful activities in international waters.
"At the time of the attack, the U.S.S. Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. It was broad daylight and the weather conditions were excellent. Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air. At 1450 hours local time [sic] on June 8, 1967, two Israeli aircraft circled the U.S.S. Liberty three times, with the evident purpose of identifying the vessel. Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the U.S.S. Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. In these circumstances, the later military attack by Israeli aircraft on the U.S.S. Liberty is quite literally incomprehensible. [At] a minimum, the attack must be condemned as an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life.
"The subsequent attack by Israeli torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life. The silhouette and conduct of U.S.S. Liberty readily distinguished it from any vessel that could have been considered hostile. The U.S.S. Liberty was peacefully engaged, posed no threat whatsoever to the torpedo boats, [and] obviously carried no armament affording it a combat capability. It could and should have been scrutinized visually at close range before torpedoes were fired.
"While the Ambassador of Israel has informed the Secretary of State that 'the government of Israel is prepared to make amends for the tragic loss of life and material damage,' the Secretary of State wishes to make clear that the United States Government expects the Government of Israel also to take disciplinary measures which international law requires in the event of wrongful conduct by the military personnel of a State. He wishes also to make clear that the United States Government expects the government of Israel to issue instructions necessary to ensure that United States personnel and properly will not again be endangered by the wrongful actions of military personnel.
"The United States Government expects that the Government of Israel will provide compensation in accordance with international law to the extent that it is possible to compensate for the losses sustained in this tragic event. The Department of State will, in the near future, present to the Government of Israel a full monetary statement of its claim.
"Washington, D.C.
June 10, 1967"
Many questions remain. The "Moorer Commission" (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:
1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);
2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;
3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;
4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;
5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;
6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;
7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;
8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;
9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;
10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;
11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;
12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.
WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:
FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;
SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and
THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.
We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.
"However, when US decides to sell nuclear stuff to India, it basically said to the Israelis that while you can't sell to China, we can sell to India. "
Wrong. Its like telling Israel......"since US wont sell to China so shouldn't Israel." And while US can sell to India so can Israel. Doesn't seem unfair at all.
"All it takes is one corrupt official, and India has plenty."
India isnt anything like China or Pakistan regardless of corruption. And it wasn't one corrupt official (A. Q. Khan) but the entire Pakistani establishment including the ISI that ran the nuclear walmart.
No need for knee-jerking.
There are many forums in China... just as there are anti-Japanese forums, there are also pro-Japanese forums. Most Chinese don't really care about India (Chinese tend to focus more on East Asia, not other parts of the world), I have never seen a Chinese racist anti-Indian forum, if you have, please provide the link for sake of discussion. There are statist forums and there are federalist/regionalism forums. There are forums in China whose ultimate goal is in having one region becoming independent (although they don't voice this directly, but it's obvious by the direction of the posts). If you really can read Chinese, then it's not hard finding forums that don't follow the party line. Censorship is overwhelmingly uneffective; about as effective as a porn blocker. Try http://www.sinolect.org/bbs for one, which is a regionalist site that wants greater cultural, political and economic freedom and autonomy in an eastern region of China.
Looks like you are replying without bothering to read any of the previous posts or clicking on the previous links.
Inferiority complex, eh? Is that why you are still smarting over some ridiculous comments made by some Indian professor years ago...LMAO. Sorry, ChiCom....you are the one with an inferiority complex.
From experience, I have found that the ChiComs and their apologists are the MOST brainwashed peple on the planet (along with their allies, the Islamists). Go back to the comissionar and tell him that your talking points are not effective on a forum where people do their research...LOL.
Good luck; I'll pray for your freedom.
The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty has never been investigated by Congress, the only such naval incident not to have been. The crew members filed A Report: War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel, June 8, 1967 Submitted to the Secretary of the Army in his capacity as Executive Agent for the Secretary of Defense, June 8, 2005. It is still an active issue that needs to be resolved not only for the people involved, but also, for history. We still discuss the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
B)Even assuming it was not an acciddent, it does not serve to establish a history of attacks on US interests. At best it is an isolated incedent.
Why does the truth have to be surpressed? Abu Garib was an isolated incident, but it was investigated and those responsible prosecuted. No Israeli even received a reprimand for the USS Liberty incident.
C)Even assuming it was not an accident, the incedent occurred under a different administration, realtions since the incedent have been fine, and very peaceful.
Irrelevant. We paid reparations to Japanese-Americans interred during the war decades later.
D)The whole incedent is less relevant than the JFK 'conspiracy'.
The death of 34 Americans and wounding of 173 others is relevant.
I say leave the past in the past. Were we at war with Japan? Are we now? Do we want to build a base in Japan?
Japan offered its unconditional surrender. We tried and executed many of those responsible for their attack against us at Pearl Harbor. No Israeli has been held accountable nor have they offered a satisfactory explanation as to why the attack was carried out.
"So that's your tactic? Divert attention from the facts, by casting aspersions?"
Ummm...okay, wise one. Whatever.
"Chinese tend to focus more on East Asia, not other parts of the world"
LOL....this has to be the understatement of the year. Ever heard of the Chinese "String of Pearls" strategy? What about the ties betwen China, Chavez's Venezuela, and the Islamists?
You have just lost all your credibility with that statement.
At least Kabar had the courage to state what he believes. You just cast out sly innuendos, I doubt this brings you a lot of success in life.
Islam is the greatest threat to world peace just as it has been for almost 1400 years.
My job is not to defend YOUR interpretations of my positions.
Re: my success in life - what on earth do you know about me? Personal attaks are a sure sign of the fact that you have lost the argument. I never attacked you personally....lots of class there, Kenavi.
LOL....look at who is casting aspersions and innuendos. Doctor, heal thyself.
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