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Good morning.

We are stalled in building our house until more materials come in so I'll continue.

You gave me permission to post quotes, no, you implied that my position wasn't valid without them, so here are a few.

This has been an interesting thread, hasn't it.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the United States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so..."
Abraham Lincoln in his inaugural address, 3/4/1861

"My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps save the Union."
Abraham Lincoln in a letter to Horace Greeley in 1862

"The Southern Confederacy will not employ our ships or buy our goods. What is our shipping without it? Literally nothing... It is clear that the South gains by this process and we lose. No --- we must NOT let the South go."
from the Union Democrat, Manchester, New Hampshire, 2/19/1861

"That either revenue from duties must be collected in the ports of the rebel states, or the ports must be closed to importation from abroad....If neither of these things be done, our revenue laws will be substantially repealed, the sources of our treasury will be dried up..."
from the New York Evening Post, 3/12/1861

"I pity them greatly, but I must be mum, for how could we do without sugar and rum."
British poet William Cowper(1731-1800) in a poem about slaves

"Our situation illustrates the American idea that governments rest upon the consent of the governed and it is the right of the people to alter or abolish them whenever they become destructive of the ends for which they were established."
Jefferson Davis

"All we ask is to be left alone."
Jefferson Davis in his first speech to the Confederate Congress

"Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy..."
Confederate General Patrick Cleburne

At the beginning of the war, four states VA, NC, SC and GA provided somewhere around 75% of the revenue to the federal government under the Morrill tariff.

Regarding the beginning of the war, the first act of the new Confederate President was to send peace delegates to meet with the United States. Lincoln refused see them.

As to those opening shots at Fort Sumter, Lincoln had already dispatched Gustavus Fox with a fleet and some 1500 troops to set up what was essentially a blockade of Charleston harbor. When the South fired on the fort, they gave Abe the pretext he wanted to call up 75,00 troops and begin the war. Since the Union troops at the fort lowered their colors within two days and were allowed to be returned safely to the Union, despite the presence of a large force to help them, I have to assume that was the plan in the first place. Trying to turn my snide comment to you back on me was slick, but not applicable to this situation.

Slavery is morally reprehensible, as it has been when practiced by every race that has ever lived on earth, but it was only a part of the reason our ancestors killed each other, and it wasn't ended by Lincoln for reasons of morality.

As I said, this has been an interesting thread. One of the things I have learned is that there are virtually no unbiased sources.

Michael Frazier

This has been an interesting thread, hasn't it.

Actually no, it's become rather disappointing. I had hoped that you would be able to provide some quotes from southern leaders bolstering your claim that I'm wrong in my statement that the defense of slavery was by far the single most important reason for the rebellion. All I see is two quotes saying that ending slavery was not the reason why Lincoln pursued the war to it's outcome. Well, I already knew that. Then you toss in a couple of newspaper editorials about the tariff, which must mean that you believe that the tariff was the reason why the North fought since your quotes are from Northern papers. Then you add the quote from Cowpers which seems to have no bearing on the discussion at all since he was talking about slavery in British colonies prior to 1800. So nothing at all from the south as to why they rebelled. Couldn't you find any?

At the beginning of the war, four states VA, NC, SC and GA provided somewhere around 75% of the revenue to the federal government under the Morrill tariff.

That would be an extremely neat trick to accomplish, especially since the Morrill Tariff wasn't adopted until February 1861, after two of those states had seceded only 8 weeks or so before the remaining two joined the rebellion. So how they could have paid 75% of that tariff is beyond me. Add to that the facts that in the year prior to the rebellion 95% of all tariff income was collected in 3 Northern ports and that Alexander Stephens admitted that more than three-quarters of all tariff revenue was generated by the Northern states and you can understand my skepticism on your unsupported claim.

Regarding the beginning of the war, the first act of the new Confederate President was to send peace delegates to meet with the United States. Lincoln refused see them.

That's not true, either. The legislation authorizing the sending of the delegation said that they were "for the purpose of negotiating friendly relations between that government and the Confederate States of America, and for the settlement of all questions of disagreement between the two governments upon principles of right, justice, equity, and good faith." The problem with that is evident right off the bat, unless Lincoln was willing to accept confederate independence and treat with the southern states as a legitimate government then there was nothing to talk about. The one major bone of contention, secession, wasn't open for discussion. So calling them "peace delegates" is quite a stretch.

As to those opening shots at Fort Sumter, Lincoln had already dispatched Gustavus Fox with a fleet and some 1500 troops to set up what was essentially a blockade of Charleston harbor.

The fleet had closer to two hundred troops rather than 1500, and those it did have were untrained. The purpose of the fleet was made clear in a message delivered to Governor Pickens long before the arrival of the ships. The message was delivered by a messenger from Lincoln and was quite clear, "I am directed by the President of the United States to notify you to expect an attempt will be made to supply Fort Sumter with provisions only; and that, if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made, without further notice, or in case of an attack upon the Fort." And the idea that they were there to blockade Charleston is pretty dumb if you think about it. What would blockading one port do? Especially one that wasn't even the busiest southern port, not even the second busiest? It would have accomplished nothing, and your claim that that was the purpose of the ships is really rather ridiculous.

When the South fired on the fort, they gave Abe the pretext he wanted to call up 75,00 troops and begin the war. Since the Union troops at the fort lowered their colors within two days and were allowed to be returned safely to the Union, despite the presence of a large force to help them, I have to assume that was the plan in the first place.

The ever popular "That darned Lincoln forced us to do it" defense. I'm surprised you waited this long before trotting it out.

Trying to turn my snide comment to you back on me was slick, but not applicable to this situation.

But still pretty slick. You fell right into that one.

One of the things I have learned is that there are virtually no unbiased sources.

Perhaps you can try for accurate ones?