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To: justshutupandtakeit
Madison understood as did all the others that the situation with Rhode Island and North Carolina was an anomaly which would be straightened out. He did not think of them as foreign states. Though I am not sure what point you believe you were addressing through that quote.

No. Quote Madison and "all the others" saying that the situation with Rhode Island was an anomaly which would be straightened out.

I allude in a particular manner to those two States that have not thought fit to throw themselves into the bosom of the Confederacy. It is a desirable thing, on our part as well as theirs, that a re-union should take place as soon as possible. I have no doubt, if we proceed to take those steps which would be prudent and requisite at this juncture, that in a short time we should see that disposition prevailing in those States which have not come in, that we have seen prevailing in those States which have embraced the constitution.

It is clear: Rhode Island was not in the union. Nobody claimed otherwise and, in fact, people were calling for an embargo. Your metaphysical union, detectable only by it's normative aura, did not exist, nor predate the constitution.

One can claim a belief in a "right" of secession only be completely ignoring the Federalist while placing all faith in an interpretation of the 10th amendment which is completely at odds with the views of Hamilton, Washington, Madison, Marshall and all other significant interpreters of the Constitution.

The only significant interpreters of the constitution were those that ratified it. They had this to say:

WE the Delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly, and now met in Convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us, to decide thereon, DO in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will: that therefore no right of any denomination, can be cancelled, abridged, restrained or modified, by the Congress, by the Senate or House of Representatives acting in any capacity, by the President or any department or officer of the United States, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes: and that among other essential rights, the liberty of conscience and of the press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained or modified by any authority of the United States.

With these impressions, with a solemn appeal to the searcher of hearts for the purity of our intentions, and under the conviction, that, whatsoever imperfections may exist in the Constitution, ought rather to be examined in the mode prescribed therein, than to bring the Union into danger by a delay, with a hope of obtaining amendments previous to the ratification:

We the said Delegates, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, do by these presents assent to, and ratify the Constitution recommended on the seventeenth day of September, one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, by the Foederal Convention for the Government of the United States; hereby announcing to all those whom it may concern, that the said Constitution is binding upon the said People, according to an authentic copy hereto annexed, in the words following:


1,294 posted on 04/15/2006 3:16:39 AM PDT by Gianni
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To: Gianni
There is no need to quote anyone anymore than has been done as regards their opinion about Rhode Island neither the state authorities nor the feds believed any separation was anything but temporary the only points of controversy were the degrees of pressure willing to be used to hurry ratification. Nothing n the Articles gave federal authorities any power to operate within the states except through the agency of the state. It was precisely this which was to be changed in the new Constitution in order to cement the Union.

You folks keep quoting that ratification document without understanding what is said "powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES may be resumed by THEM (the People of the United states)..." There was no state sovereignty which could contradict or overrule the Constitution left after its ratification even in theory (as there was under the Articles). State power was ENTIRELY limited to SOME law within its borders no more. In any case Virginia's ratification document did not claim secession was constitutional nor did ANY of the others.

Hamilton and Madison devote Federalists 15 through 22 to showing how the period of "Sovereign over Sovereigns" or "Government over governments" was OVER with ratification. It NEVER worked. The Union was to be made incapable of dissolution by tying the individual citizen to it. No longer was federal power to be exercised solely through state aegis. I defy you to read those and claim there is any sovereignty left to the states sufficient to unilaterally break the bonds of Union.
1,296 posted on 04/15/2006 9:50:20 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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