Posted on 03/02/2006 6:28:28 PM PST by spetznaz
The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) tender is beginning to resemble a free-for-all that shows no signs of abating and will continue for several years. What makes this tender an unusual one, however, is that the type of radar and onboard systems which will be included in the deal, the co-production arrangements to provide work for local Indian industry and geopolitical considerations are going to carry far more weight in the decision process than the actual choice of the aircraft itself.
When it is finally released, one the most important technical requirements that is expected to figure in the tender’s official request for proposals (RFP)–now delayed until as late as June–is the requirement that any fighter participating in the competition be equipped with an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar. “We are ninety-five percent or better confident that having an AESA onboard is going to be a make-or-break condition of bidding on this program–it is the price of admission,” said one Western industry representative familiar with the program.
This creates a complicated scenario for some of the companies bidding, and has precipitated strange and previously unheard-of combinations of aircraft and radar suppliers.
Normally, integrating a new radar onto an airframe for the sake of just one customer is prohibitively expensive because of the nonrecurring costs, but the prospect of the unusually large sale of 126 aircraft to India–larger than any other export sale in more than 17 years–creates enough economies of scale that this issue is moot.
(Excerpt) Read more at ainonline.com ...
Provided the process can be made more user-friendly, there are several major players maneuvering for position in this competition.
Lockheed Martin’s venerable F-16 is the most popular aircraft in the region, but as of today only one model of the aircraft is equipped with an AESA, the Northrop Grumman (NG) AN/APG-80 that was developed for the F-16E/F Block 60. If Lockheed Martin were to sell some variant of the Block 60 to the IAF they would have to pay the United Arab Emirates (UAE) an approximate 7 percent per aircraft royalty, as the desert kingdom funded the development of this configuration and has resale commission rights.
Another solution would be for Northrup Grumman to retrofit the AN/APG-80 to the F-16C/D Block 50, making it a “Block 50 double plus” variant, but this involves costs and engineering problems that are not tackled lightly–most notably adding a liquid-cooling system.
The other U.S. competitor is the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which the Chicago-based planemaker is working hard to promote since there are no export customers yet for the new E/F configuration. “India is the largest fighter deal since the beginning of the 1990s,” said Boeing Asia/Pacific regional vice president Mark Kronenberg here at Changi. “It’s got everybody’s attention.”
The Super Hornet is equipped with the Raytheon AN/APG-79, which is currently undergoing some of its final operational testing.
Raytheon representatives explained that the APG-79 model is the embodiment of all of the technologies and design concepts developed for their bid on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. Currently, Raytheon is contracted to build a total of 232 units, which also provides the economies of scale necessary to be a competitive bidder.
Several years ago the Saab JAS-39 Gripen was considered the odds-on favorite for the Indian tender, and was at one time the only Western competitor in the race. Gripen International officials told Aviation International News that they were briefed here at Changi this week by the visiting chief of the IAF as to the requirements of the soon-to-be-issued tender. Gripen representatives would not comment as to the details, except to say that–based on the chief’s comments–“the Gripen and the [IAF Sukhoi-made] Su-30MKI would be a nice combination for India.” Ericsson, which supplies most of the electronics for the JAS-39, is bidding the Not Only a Radar (or NORA), which is supposed to contain some 1,000 transmit/receive (T/R) modules.
One of the real wild cards in the race is Dassault. A delegation accompanying French President Jacques Chirac on a three-day state visit to India this week included Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne, who intimated what had been widely anticipated for some months now: that his firm would be following up its withdrawal of the Mirage 2000-5 from consideration in the M-MRCA tender with the offer of proposing the Rafale in its place.
“We explained that keeping the Mirage 2000 production line waiting [for five more years] would be too costly, but the Indian authorities obviously are not certain about this yet,” he told the French financial daily Les Echos. He told local Indian and international media that he is in New Delhi to “clarify the situation.” Although Edelstenne made no formal offer for an aircraft in place of the Mirage he did say that “we are waiting for the tender to be issued and to see whether we can bid with some other aircraft,” which could only be the Rafale.
The Russian Legacy The biggest contender of all, however, may still be RSK-MiG in Russia. Over the last several decades, Russia has been India’s reliable and most consistent arms provider. India received massive technical assistance from Russia–including setting up a series production line at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) plant in Nasik. The IAF was one of the first foreign customers to receive export versions of the MiG-29 fighter in the 1980s.
Most notable among all of Russia’s cooperative programs with India has been the Su-30MKI that was designed and manufactured for New Delhi in the second half of the 1990s. Former Irkut general director Aleksei Fedorov masterminded this development and he is now the general director of RSK-MiG which is now offering India the MiG-35.
The MiG-35 is to be an ambitious leap. It takes the MiG-29 and redesigns its structure, giving the aircraft an all-new digital internal infrastructure, and engines with a thrust-vector control package similar to that of the Su-30MKI. Press releases and public statements on the MiG-35 have also stated that the Russians will not be outdone and will offer an AESA. The question is whose AESA, since none of the Russian radar design bureaus plan to have a model ready in the time frame that the Indian RFP is anticipated to dictate.
The dark horse candidate in this case is the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Elta EL/M-2052. IAI is showing this radar for the first time at Changi and although its spokesman will not confirm that the company is bidding with MiG on the Indian tender, it does state that the MiG-29/35 is one of the more near-term possibilities. The model seen here at the airshow is set up for a liquid-cooling system like most other AESAs, but IAI engineers claim that a version of this radar for the MiG-29 would be a smaller array, small enough that it could use an air-cooling system. Liquid-cooling systems can be a maintenance headache, so this is not a small accomplishment on the Israeli’s part.
Ping.
In my opinion, the best out of all the choices outlined above is the F/A-18E/F. If Congress OKs the deal, adding the Super Hornet to the IAF inventory would greatly increase their air superiority and strike capabilities. Additionally, the Super Hornets could even be used from the Air Defense Ship, if this was ever needed in a combat situation.
The F/A-18 is the most advanced of all the choices, though the JAS-39 Gripen, which has been ordered by Hungary, S. Africa, Czech Rep.,etc gives it a serious run for its money.
The Rafale still has some technical problems that have to be worked out.
The best choice of all would be the EF-2000 Typhoon but this might be too costly for India. In any case, for some reason its not one of the choices.
However, India could fund the acquisition of Typhoons if they cancelled the LCA project, which does not look as promising as it once did (for all apparent purposes, the LCA will be about as capable as the Chinese FC-1)
With the money saved, India could buy up to 50 or 60 Eurofighters.
But of the choices given in the article, India should buy one of the Advanced Tactical Fighters (Gripen, Super Hornet, Rafale).
The MiG-29 is rapidly becoming obsolete and has a horrible combat record (though some blame pilot error, etc) The "MiG-35" would presumably not be all that much better.
And the ATFs offer much more technology and capability than the Su-30, too.
India should go w/ one of the ATFs.
No, don't tell me that the very same evil arab country that wants to take over our ports to give them to al-qaeda is the very same country that helped fund development of a vital component of our national defences?
</sarcasm>
The MiG-29's combat record was horrible mostly because no air arm properly knew how to use the potentially world-beating capabilities of the plane--especially its excellent manueverability and the helmet-mounted sighting system. The Indian Air Force, with its more modern training for its pilots, could turn the MiG-35 with its vectorable-thrust engines and modern electronics into a real world beater.
There is not much basis to rank the Gripen alongside the Superhornet or the Rafale or even the F-16.It's range & payload are far lower & moreover,vital electronic & weapon systems for the type will have to be sourced from the US or France.Now why would they want to cooperate if India chooses the JAS-39,esp if their stuff is competing??
That puts the Gripen in the same league as the LCA,though it's development is still lagging.The IAF would hedge their bets on an Indegnious product,which can be upgraded.Israeli & Italian companies are offering AESA radars for the LCA.
About the Mig-35,even if a non-Russian radar & other systems were to be added,it would still be considerably less expensive than the (still unfinished) EF-2000 & Rafale.
"The MiG-29's combat record was horrible mostly because no air arm properly knew how to use the potentially world-beating capabilities of the plane--especially its excellent manueverability and the helmet-mounted sighting system."
well I think the Yugoslavs used the -29 pretty well, considering their capabilities. They tried some pretty innovative flying tactics against US and NATO fighters.
I dont have a direct link, but there is an article about it at ACIG.com (or is it acig.org i forget)
The -29 looks great on paper, but didnt perform well in real combat.
"The Indian Air Force, with its more modern training for its pilots, could turn the MiG-35 with its vectorable-thrust engines and modern electronics into a real world beater."
Well the pilots would have even more of an advantage if they were given a plane that was already a world beater, which they could improve the performance of with their modern training, rather than trying to turn an obsolescent aircraft into a world beater with their flying skills.
"No, don't tell me that the very same evil arab country that wants to take over our ports to give them to al-qaeda is the very same country that helped fund development of a vital component of our national defences?"
We don't use the F-16 E/F Block 60. It was developed specially for the UAE, paid for by the UAE.
"There is not much basis to rank the Gripen alongside the Superhornet or the Rafale or even the F-16.It's range & payload are far lower & moreover,vital electronic & weapon systems for the type will have to be sourced from the US or France.Now why would they want to cooperate if India chooses the JAS-39,esp if their stuff is competing??"
Sweden's military technology is almost as good, if not as good as ours and France's.
The US Navy even leased a Swedish AIP submarine recently, and Swedish subs are considered among the most sophisticated in the world, as is their aircraft technology.
What makes you think that the weapon systems and electronics will have to be acquired from the US or France??
The Swedish Ericsson radar is comparable (well almost) to the F/A-18 E/F radar, and Sweden makes all it's own weapons systems and electronics for planes, just about...aside from AAMs. The Gripen uses the AMRAAM (which the US would probably sell to India) and even if we didnt, the Gripen can use the European Skyflash, and Meteor (when it comes out) as well as the Israeli Python 5 and latest model Derby missiles.
"That puts the Gripen in the same league as the LCA,though it's development is still lagging."
You're kidding right? The Gripen is an Advanced tactical fighter with some of the most advanced systems in the world. Why would numerous countries be buying an obsolete fighter?
There was a thread on FR about the LCA a while back, I read it in the archives. I actually belive you posted on the thread. A poster called mithridates provided information and specs on the LCA (which wont be mass produced until 2012 at EARLIEST) and the consensus at the end of the thread was that the LCa, when it comes out, will be more capable than the "economy model" FC-1 but less capable than the deluxe model Fc-1 and certainly much less capable than the J-10. The LCA was said to be intended to fight mainly upgraded MiG-21s. From what I've read, its not a very capable aircraft. Do you remember the thread I refer to?
"About the Mig-35,even if a non-Russian radar & other systems were to be added,it would still be considerably less expensive than the (still unfinished) EF-2000 & Rafale."
Less expensive but also MUCH less capable. The Typhoon, by the way, is not unfinished, but already in service in the AFs of Italy, Germany, Britain, and Spain.
Again, India would best be advised to go with ATFs, which are the fighters of the future, rather than with planes that are rapidly becoming obsolete.
On the other hand, have Indian MiG-29s and SU-30MKIs go up against Pakistani F-16A/Bs and the results would be just as skewed .....although this time it would be the Pakistani Vipers going down due to the qualitative edge India has. By some reports India could shoot down Pakistani planes while those planes are still over Pakistani airspace, and once you add the new Phalcon radars India will be getting from Israel then an air battle between India and Pakistan gets even more skewed. Thus here it would be the MiG and the Sukhoi going home with the meat.
Does the Gripen come with an AESA radar? I am guessing not. Also what kind of AAM will the Indians use with the Gripen. The Super Hornet is the best bet for the Indians. Especially if it comes with the AESA, a state of the art EW suite and AMRAAMs. The only question of course is $$$$. Why would the Indians opt for a twin engine aircraft when they already have the Russian Flankers. This might be a good chance for Boeing to enter into an end to end agreement with the indians for passenger and military aviation. That would shut out Airbus and the notoriously overpriced French.
Do the Russians have an AESA?? Also the Israeli EL/M-2052 needs our approval. The Super Hornet seems to be the best bet for the Indians. I am sure Boeing would be willing to set up a maintenance faciltiy in India for the Super Hornets.
Never let facts get in the way of a good rant! ;^)
Nobody's denying the state of Swedish technology.But a lot of it's systems incl. it's Volvo engines(GE-404) & EW systems have American origins.Those cannot be exported WITHOUT American consent.Now my point,is why should the US release the AMRAAM when the F-16 is around or for MBDA members like France & Britain(hawking their wares) to allow the Meteor??The Israeli option does exist but the Swedes are not putting in the kind of efforts that any of the other folks are putting in.The only reason,seemingly is that they are in the competition for hard bargaining with the rest of the bunch.The US,Russia & everyone else are mean when it comes to their stuff competing with jointly developed stuff.Eg the AEW/C competition in South Korea.
About the LCA & the FC-1,much of the specs about both are speculative.Many systems are still under development,with foreign firms offering or tying up with Indian companies for it's systems incl. engines(SNECMA),EW & RWR(ELTA).Anyway,even it's biggest supporters will admit that the LCA will not be produced on the scale that was envisaged.
As I stated much earlier,a 2 aircraft is pretty much on the cards.With the N-deal through,an American aircraft is more or less likely.Question is how many of each type.
Some websites that Russia is working on an AESA system for the Flanker series,though progress is unclear.If a number hike is on as the article states,the Super Hornet stands a fair chance esp since it would give Bush a pretty strong incentive to convince the Congress on the N-deal.Last heard,the Raytheon APG-79 was being reviewed by the US Congress for potential sale to India.The cost of the SH means that a buy of 100+ jets may not be likely.
Are you sure of the EL/M-2052???Don't know if it's a collab effort with the US.If it is not,the Israelis can export it without technical approval(only political).
About India operating the SU-30 & possibly buying the SH,well arms deals are not always about requirements alone.
Thanks for your reply. I must admit that I am not totally sure of the export restrictions / rights we have on the EL/M-2052. (It is hard to keep track of what exactly we are collaborating with the Israelis.) I did see lots of discussions on mounting the EL/M onto the F16s
Either way, why would the Indians go to different vendors when they can get a whole package from Boeing? Boeing with help from our government should negotiate an end to end deal with the indians for civilian and defense equipment. In return Boeing can set up maintenance facilities in India to service the Asia Pacific region. A Win Win situation for both.
About the aircraft itself, who do you think will win? The Mig-35 with an EL/M-2052 radar or the Super Hornet. If they are going in for a twin engine Mig-35 why not go in for more Flankers with AESA from Israel?? Also the Indians were concerned about a new aircraft and the associated maintenance costs. I believe that along with "history" go against the Super Hornet.
As you said purchases arent about meeting requirements. I hope the Bush visit to India will convince indians of our strategic partnership.
"Does the Gripen come with an AESA radar? "
I believe it comes with an AESA equivalent, if not an AESA.
"Also what kind of AAM will the Indians use with the Gripen."
As my post above states, for BVR the Gripen could use AMRAAMs, Skflah, or Meteor (when it comes out) in addition to a number of Israeli missiles like the Derby.
For WVR, the AIM-9M/L Sidewinder, the Python 4/5, the Mantra Magic, etc.
"The Super Hornet is the best bet for the Indians. Especially if it comes with the AESA, a state of the art EW suite and AMRAAMs. The only question of course is $$$$."
Um, there's one more question, which is the deal passing Congress. If Congress won't OK the F/A-18EF but only the -C/D, that would be a major turnoff for India. But if they can get the super hornet that would obviously be their best bet.
LOL :)
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