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There was a hugh debate here on FR early last summer when Dr. Dobson demanded in a letter that several liberal democrates tow the line on certain legislation or else Dr. Dobson would mobilize his voters to send these guys packing -- now I will grant you that you possibly missed this mess which was argued from three sides for almost half a week as article after article came out. The FR athieists and agnostics -- pointed fingers at this event. The people who believe that the church is to use beg government the courts and anything it can to control the nation and thus the unsaved so they will look and act more christian so they feel less of a duty to preach salvation were in another corner -- mind you now when CAIR proposed doing the same identical tactics almost word for word less than a month later these same people had a cow. (At the time I pointed out the utter hypocrisy

And we are sort of in that same place with Hamas being duly elected in a fair election. And in 5-10 years if they vote the same stuff into iraq waht do we do? See what these guys are supporting is not exactly democracy they want a government that supports christianity by legislating it from congress or the bench.

And when the liberals legislated their atheism and anti-god stuff and still are we are all angry and pull no punches of how we feel about it but this has nothing to do with the Gospel and Chirst -- it is for our own self comfort so people can not publicly say and do thing to offend us --so we try to make the unsaved act atleast partically saved and if they don't we use government and the courts as our sword to convert or atleast act so in public hence the FCC laws, and all kinds of stuff. This has nothing to do with general laws of all civilized societies and the ten commandments, and I might add that abortion is clearly murder I am not talking so much about that

I am rather discussing or I hope I am how we get back to better government and that would be as Rush would say him convincing people one person at a time (salvation one on one) until we see eye to eye and simply vote our consience with out threaatening or brow beating the unsaved into submission.

unfortunately few see it that way and would prefer giving the libs the same treatment they have given us -- (how enlightened, how christ-like). They instead prefer that we become activists and do this in your face shoutdown of those who disagree. And I do not find this behavior in the Gospel and epistles. But these people insist that to lay down our lives and to let people reward our good with evil is being a wimp and a failure. They insist that we are to stand up and seize this earthly kingdom from the devil and put him in his place -- this is largely due to the preaching of Kenneth Hagan, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell And these men have done a lot to shape evanglicalism fundamentalism and the Chrismatic movement since the early 1980's and I think it is fair to say that the bulk of the converts in these movements are from that time on -- the majority of the churches I have been in that are growing are filled with young people -- rather than the old faithful so we incerasingly have a church that has heard only this activist in your face Gospel and accepting without reservation that this is the truth and this is the way that it always has been.

Let me just say that when Jerry Falwell first began talking about the moral majority I lived in virginia, Alexandria just up the road from Jerry Falwell church and school amd He was rejected by many evangelicals fundamentalists and charismatics as a blow hard and self-righteous. Whether you know it or not he was deposed by his own church in lynchbug and he fellback to the bible school he had build. In those days nobody envisioned what would happen in the church over the next few decades.

Some things are not at all the way they might appear.

In my opinion you are purposefully misrepresenting what he did so that you can misinterpret it and then provide your chosen solution.

Dobson has every right to write letters and ask for things and to mobilize people to vote a certain way. Just because he is a Christian doesn't mean you define his citizenship rights as an effort to mobilize the church to bet government to control unsaved people. That is so bogus and that popular argument is very harmful. The things Dobson wants are POPULAR things. And our form of government, when operating as intended, does not allow for anyone to control the nation. That's why we vote. And mobilizing voters, writing letters, speaking on the radio, giving speeches, writting books, etc. is how it's done, whether you are a Christian or not. I get so sick of the implication that Christians haven't got the same citizenship rights as everyone else, or at least they should forfeit them if they want to be considered true Christians.

As for Hamas, there is no "we" in that. Their government has always been a mess. They always elected some degree of terrorist over there.

I find your post appalling. We are not on the same page at all.

Salvation has nothing to do with government. Hello? And according to your theories, the more Christians we have in America, the more people we have who are banned from having an opinion on political issues. I am deeply offended by your post. Just because the Bible teaches something, doesn't mean that it is bad or that gov't can't address the issue. "Thou shalt not steal" is in the Bible. Yet you're okay with that issue in gov't, aren't you? What is Dobson wanting that is so oppressive? Marriage defined the way it has always been defined throughout history, whether it be Christian history, Jewish history, or anything else? Oh how oppressive of him. Oh how dare he try to do that. I mean, doesn't he know that heterosexual marriage turns people into Christians by force?

I was typing too fast, so let me try again:

In my opinion, you are purposefully misrepresenting what Dobson did so that you can misinterpret it and then provide your chosen solution.

Dobson has every right to write letters, to ask for things, and to mobilize people to vote a certain way. Just because he is a Christian doesn't mean you can define his citizenship rights as an effort to mobilize the church to "get government to control unsaved people." That is so bogus, and that popular argument is very harmful. The things Dobson wants are POPULAR things. And our form of government, when operating as intended, does not allow for anyone to control the nation. That's why we vote. And mobilizing voters, writing letters, speaking on the radio, giving speeches, writing books, etc. is how it's done, whether you are a Christian or not. I get so sick of the implication that Christians haven't got the same citizenship rights as everyone else, or at least they should forfeit them if they want to be considered true Christians.

As for Hamas, there is no "we" in that. Their government has always been a mess. They always elected some degree of terrorist over there.

I find your post appalling. We are not on the same page at all.

Salvation has nothing to do with government. Hello? And according to your theories, the more Christians we have in America, the more people we have who are banned from having an opinion on political issues. I am deeply offended by your post. Just because the Bible teaches something, doesn't mean that it is bad or that gov't can't address the issue. "Thou shalt not steal" is in the Bible. Yet you're okay with that issue in gov't, aren't you? What is Dobson wanting that is so oppressive? Marriage defined the way it has always been defined throughout history, whether it be Christian history, Jewish history, or anything else? Oh how oppressive of him. Oh how dare he try to do that. I mean, doesn't he know that heterosexual marriage turns people into Christians by force?