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To: Sam Cree
You guys support some limit on wealth creation, or some level of redistribution of wealth?

Not what I said.

I was simply acknowledging a fact about human nature -- people tend to resent perceived inequality, and the perception is strengthened when those "above" defend their position in terms that make them sound greedy. Whether it's right or wrong to resent the inequality is somewhat beside the point: the feeling is there anyway.

Communists and leftists understand this feeling, and are very, very good at exploiting it.

Conversely, if the wealthy folks pay more than is strictly necessary, wealth is inevitably spread more widely, and they end up diffusing the resentment -- socialism loses traction as a result. Moreover, I think this probably also ends up increasing productivity and creativity, so that everybody ends up with more wealth.

I'm not "socialistic." On the other hand, I also think that we do have moral obligations to help those who aren't as well off as we are; and I think this ends up being congruent with long-term self interest -- which is about what you'd expect from a morally correct stance.

At the same time, I think those below have a moral obligation to work for their own improvement -- they should appreciate what help they get, but should not expect it as a right.

IMO, is the existence of envy, or the use of it by politicians, even remotely a justification for the elimination of the free market or for forced equality, if that's where you are heading.

I agree with you -- I think there's a lot of empirical evidence to back you up on this.

On a more esoteric level, I think we're seeing a dynamic in the US economy that could lead to some interesting, if unpredictable results along the lines described by this article.

"Outsourcing" is popular because, in manufacturing especially, Americans cost too much to employ. American workers want to maintain or increase their current compensation -- sometimes even to the ruination of their employers. American corporations want to decrease their overhead and increase their bottom line, so they get rid of their American workers. This is beginning to happen even in traditionally white-collar sorts of things, such as engineering and design.

My sense is that this is an unstable situation -- one way or another, American workers are going to end up making a lot less than they currently do; and American corporations are going to end up having a much smaller domestic market than they've come to expect, because their former employees can no longer buy as much.

The question is how this will be dealt with when (if) it occurs.

33 posted on 02/24/2006 7:55:16 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
I think I understand your point of the perception by the lower income earners, they feel they are taking the brunt of the pain in this economy.

You aren't advocating socialism, just point out the perception that many voters have, and will carry to the polls in Nov.

I fear a backlash in the northern states because of high heating costs, in some areas its far worse than is being reported.
Natural gas prices are way up and the average family is paying an extra $80-90 a month, about $200-250 total heat bill per month.

What isn't reported is the areas that don't have natural gas service, and they use propane for heat, their bills are running $500-700 a month!
The price of that has tripled in just a couple years, and there is no regulation on what they can charge.

Right or wrong, people are being strapped in some areas, and socialists will be playing that card in the 2006 elections. IMHO
50 posted on 02/24/2006 9:05:56 AM PST by Beagle8U (An "Earth First" kinda guy ( when we finish logging here, we'll start on the other planets.)
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To: r9etb

I truly wasn't sure where you were headed, thanks for the explanation.

I now find that our differences are far fewer.

As a free marketer and a believer in individual freedom, I hardly think that prices of goods and services should be set individually according to predetermined asset levels. Instead, prices ought to be determined by what people are willing to pay. That's nearly unavoidable in any case.

I do agree that those of wealth have some *moral* obligation to help in some way those who are in need. Even though, IMO, the actual wealth that they've created is more (generally) helpful to the needy than their charity is. But the obligation should not be a legal one in a free country, charity should be at the discretion of the giver rather than the receiver...or the state.

As for outsourcing and free trade, I am philosophically a free trader, but do have mixed feelings and concerns, especially where national security comes in. Besides which, how can there be free trade if only one side is doing it?


51 posted on 02/24/2006 9:08:50 AM PST by Sam Cree (absolute reality) - ("Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein)
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To: r9etb
American workers want to maintain or increase their current compensation -- sometimes even to the ruination of their employers.

And yet there are numerous examples of workers willingly foregoing wage increases and even accepting wage cuts when their employer is in trouble. Its when the sacrifices are one sided that resentment grows.

69 posted on 02/24/2006 11:00:01 AM PST by lucysmom
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To: r9etb
I would like to point that envy is a natural instinct like fear, curiosity, thirst, maternal care etc ...

Usually instincts have a proper role and cannot be eradicated without causing much greater damage.

85 posted on 02/24/2006 7:15:29 PM PST by A. Pole (In 2001 top 5% owned 60% of national wealth, while bottom 60% owned 4%)
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