There is no contract until the meeting of the Minds!
There are more times we stumble from grace than being in the state of grace!
Posted on 02/21/2006 10:02:21 AM PST by Colofornian
Yes, it is more common than some would think.
In my business, we replace mirror in some commercial projects. You would be surprised how much can be revealed through tiny little scrapes on the backside of mirrors, if there is also a peep hole through the wall.
As a woman, it gives me the willies.
One does not have to be a member of the LDS Church to teach at BYU. I went to BYU. I had several professors who were not members of the LDS Church. They are however held to the same high standards regardless of what their faith is.
I looked him up on the BYU catalog--he certainly is BYU born and bred--he has four degrees all from BYU--BA 1968, MA 1970, MBA 1972, and PhD 1994.
Again, you intentionally neglect the broader context. We're not simply talking about age disparity only, but age disparity within the realm of a complex dynamic of "sister-wives" competing for the attention of a husband (not to mention countless children competing for the same thing from a father).
I think were you to ask the average 19th century wife (if you could), their answer would be the same: "Would you prefer a 'less demanding' husband or one in which you're going to have trouble demanding attention from him due to being a small splinter of his spousal pie?" If anything, women want more attention (the right kind, of course) from their husbands, not less.
The only real, measurable "positives" plural wives had going for them in context to their era was division of labor and division of childcare.
As for provision, yes, Joseph and Brigham had the resources to provide for numerous wives and children. Many other polygamists chopped up family resources so many ways the same could not be said of them. Certainly, Joseph and Brigham had no more time to allot to their wives than any other polygamist. Their "power" did not provide more than 24 hours in a day.
Bottom line: Is a "big fish" in a small pond a great catch if you have to devour alongside 25-40 others?
Muhammed beat both Young and Smith... married sweet Aisha when she was just six. Marriage was consummated when she was nine. He was 53. We have a Winner !!!
We also have a pattern.
Each were polygamists. Each were religious founders or prophets whose message contradicted scriptures that came before them (For example, Joseph calling all Christian professors "corrupt" and their creeds an "abomination"; and Brigham equating God to have been Adam--a doctrine since revoked by LDS).
Each redefined Jesus, reducing him to primarily a prophet (Islam) or elder brother (LDS) who was also merely a spirit brother of Lucipher (vs. Lucipher's creator--the traditional scriptural understanding of Jesus).
Big difference between recognizing Jesus as only a mere creature (LDS & Islam) vs. the Creator of all creatures (traditional Christianity).
This problem developed when latter revelations were not judged by former ones. The Bible implies that is not only lacking discernment ("test all things" says John in 1 John), but it's ignoble behavior. The Bereans, says Luke, were more "noble" because they searched the Scriptures to see if what they heard was true (Acts 17:11).
So why are you discrminating on age if that is what they agree on!
there are times it has nothing to do with power or whatever else you might conclude sometimes it is just plain LOVE!
It is the Lord who was disatisfied even those I am among those who find blaming Joseph the messinger instead taking responsibility for many who only give lip sevice!
JS-H 1
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
and Brigham equating God to have been Adam--a doctrine since revoked by LDS).
This was never Doctrine, discourses are not Doctrine!
You have discourses I have them we all have them that is not the say as revelation!
LOL...In California they would consider him for Department Chair.
There is no contract until the meeting of the Minds!
There are more times we stumble from grace than being in the state of grace!
WHOA! Mormons behaving badly.
Glad they caught him and hope he goes to jail
I was going to ask some rhetorical questions having to do with blinders that leads to historical revisionism, but decided to pass on that.
Do you want to explain how it was that Helen Mar Kimball, wife No. 24 of Joseph Smith, had time to fall in "LOVE!" w/Smith? Kimball was the ninth wife Joseph Smith married between March 4 and the end of Spring, 1843! You're telling me that Smith just ignored his 8 other brand-new brides (not to mention eight others married in 1842) to foster this whirlwind courtship?
Nope. Records show that Kimball's father, Heber C. Kimball, who himself eventually took 39 wives, brokered the deal.
If you go to http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm, it reads: "In 1843 Apostle Heber C. Kimball had an important talk with his only daughter, fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote: 'Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.'”
"Then father 'asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.' Unknown to Helen Mar, Heber and Joseph had already discussed the prospect of Helen Mar becoming one of Joseph’s wives. Heber now sought her agreement. Helen recalls, 'Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter.'"
The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. '[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.' Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith." During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote, 'my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.'" "...Helen’s father would eventually marry thirty-nine wives. She wrote, 'I had, in hours of temptation when seeing the trials of my mother, felt to rebel. I hated polygamy in my heart.' Helen later fell victim to a prolonged illness: “For three months I lay a portion of the time like one dead...I tasted of the punishment which is prepared for those who reject any of the principles of this Gospel.” Eventually she was converted to polygamy and recovered from her illness, “I fasted for one week, and every day I gained until I had won the victory...I learned that plural marriage is a celestial principle, and saw... the necessity of obedience to those who hold the priesthood, and the danger of rebelling against or speaking lightly of the Lord’s annointed."
The site goes on and includes a poem later written by her.
The same questions arise for Brigham, who married the Bigelow sisters (aged 16 and 19) the same month--March of 1847. They were wives No. 20 & 21. Ellen Rockwood, wife NO. 14, was thought to have been 16 and was also part of a double-bonus marriage month for BY (Jan, 1846). 15 yo Clarissa Decker was wife No. 6. In less than 5 years (June, 1842 to March 1847) Brigham married 19 additional wives--an average rate of a new bride for every new season of the year. I guess "love was in the air" so much that it was contagious in the 1840s.
I know several young girls that are "in love" with their school teachers.
If the school teacher reciprocates we call it a crime. Polygamy was also a crime....it's interesting that they try to justify it with love!
By interesting, I mean disgusting.
The topic was on this BYU Professor for Taping Porn Videos the fact that the light has been shone on this being and his nasty behavior some how Colofornian you feel it is an opening to go from 2006 to the time in 18oo's... or your opportunity to preach!
Colofornian there are the choices, to either be a seeker of truth, or like so many who’s program is to rearrange the facts to suit their personal agenda!
I know this opportunity is tempting for some to make this seem like a sorted situation. Yet even in Helen Mar Kimball journal some readers try as they might, think that ones opinions are really answers to that which never was given!
But let’s get back to my question!
You made a statement that women who marry man much older than her, was not in love and it was an unsavory situation, some how I can’t help but feel you were imposing your own prejudice!
Colofornian your sour disposition has insulted women with your sorted view on age different in marriage!
You know it is earth that has time, but in eternity time as we know it time does not exist!
CC that was uncalled for you have no knowledge to my reason for what I have posted!
only to think the worst lady you are wrong!!!
nice to know you think I am dishonest an a sex abuser!
There is nothing in the article that says he was Mormon. One doesn't have to be Mormon to work at BYU.
You are correct and that issue has been dealt with on this thread.
One associated with BYU must maintain the same standards as an LDS member in good standing. He is LDS, but that is not addressed in this article.
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