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To: stand watie

Hello stan......and why did Lincoln think secession was RIGHT in 1848 and NOT 1861? I still maintain that if Lincoln had vacated Ft. Sumpter, went to court with the question of secession and at the least had debate with the South, that terrible war could have been avoided and at some point slavery would have died a natural death. Sure the slaves were freed, but ONLY to the point of coming and going as they pleased but in my opinion weren't any better off. The reconstruction failure and by 1877 the government pulling out then Jim Crow for the next hundred years. The hyprocracy of the North still burns in my mind. Could it have been settled without a war? I think it could have.


100 posted on 02/22/2006 8:19:43 AM PST by Dawgreg (Happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have.)
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To: Dawgreg
The hyprocracy of the North still burns in my mind. Could it have been settled without a war? I think it could have.

As do I. Lincoln knew he couldn't win a legal fight in his contemporary political arena for a couple of reasons:

1) Being a lawyer, he KNEW what powers were and were NOT given to the federal government by the Constitution

2)The country was almost equally divided with no clear majority either way. This made a legal victory questionable.

He violated his oath of office when he forced the states to his will instead of using the outlined Constituional process.

105 posted on 02/22/2006 8:30:02 AM PST by MamaTexan (I am NOT a ~legal entity~, nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: Dawgreg
"Hello stan......and why did Lincoln think secession was RIGHT in 1848 and NOT 1861?"

That's a myth.

Lincoln is not invoking a constitutional right to destroy the Union but the natural right of revolution, an inalienable right clearly expressed in the Declaration of Independence. Lincoln never denied this right. As he said in his First Inaugural of 1861. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." But the people's right to revolution is in tension with the president's constitutional "duty…to administer the present government, as it came into his hands, and to transmit it, unimpaired by him, to his successor."

Again, Lincoln was merely reiterating the commonly accepted political opinions of his predecessors. In the aforementioned "Proclamation to the People of South Carolina," Jackson said, "secession, like any other revolutionary act, may be morally justified by the extremity of oppression; but to call it a constitutional right is confounding the meaning of terms…." (emphasis added). But despite claiming to be the true heirs of the American Founding, the seceding states never invoked the right of revolution that Jackson, Webster, Lincoln, and others acknowledged. Why not?

The main reason was that while the Founders understood the right of revolution to be an inalienable natural right of individuals antecedent to political society, Calhoun, the architect of the theory of State sovereignty used to justify secession expressly repudiated the idea of individual inalienable natural rights. Calhoun dismissed the fundamental idea of the American Founding — that "all men are created equal" — as the "most false and dangerous of all political errors." Given the large slave population of the South, this denial of the inalienable natural rights of individuals, including the right of revolution, was no doubt prudent.

Secession constitutes a repudiation of republican government as understood by the Founders. For Calhoun, sovereignty was not a characteristic of individuals, but of collective political bodies. Individual rights, such as they were, were prescriptive, not natural. If Calhoun was right, then the Founders were wrong.

For the Founders, the purpose of government was to protect the equal natural rights of all. They understood these rights to be antecedent to the creation of political society and government. The just powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed who possess the equal natural rights that republican government is supposed to protect. While the people never relinquish their right to revolution, in practice, this natural right is replaced by free elections, the outcome of which are determined by majority rule.

When the States ratified the Constitution of 1787, they pledged that they would accept the results of elections conducted according to its rules. In violation of this pledge, the Southern States seceded because they did not like the outcome of the election of 1860. Thus secession is the interruption of the constitutional operation of republican government, substituting the rule of the minority for that of the majority.

In his July 4 address to Congress, Lincoln observed that the American "experiment" in popular government had passed two of three tests — the successful establishing and the successful administering of it. One test remained. Could popular government in America maintain itself against a "formidable internal attempt to overthrow it." It had yet to be proved, said Lincoln, that ballots were "the rightful and peaceful successors to bullets" and that "when ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets."

As William Freehling has argued, the supposed right to break up the government when the minority does not get its way is really nothing but blackmail. The attempted dissolution of the Union in 1860 and 1861 was the final act in a drama that had been under way since the 1830s, only this time the blackmailers' bluff was called.

In 1833, the minority threatened secession over the tariff. The majority gave in. In 1835, it threatened secession if Congress did not prohibit discussions of slavery during its own proceedings. The majority gave in and passed a "Gag Rule." In 1850, the minority threatened secession unless Congress forced the return of fugitive slaves without a prior jury trial. The majority agreed to pass a Fugitive Slave Act. In 1854 the minority threatened secession unless the Missouri Compromise was repealed, opening Kansas to slavery. Again, the majority acquiesced rather than see the Union smashed.

But the majority could only go so far in permitting minority blackmail to override the constitutional will of the majority. At the Democratic Convention in Charleston, held in April 1860, the majority finally refused the blackmailers' demand — for a federal guarantee of slave property in all US territories. The delegates from the deep South walked out, splitting the Democratic Party and ensuring that Lincoln would be elected by a plurality.

There are two ironies here. The first is that the real "secession" was that of the South from the Democratic Party. The resulting split in the Democratic Party was instrumental in bringing about the election of Lincoln, which the South then used as the excuse for smashing the Union. The second is that the South's demand at Charleston, far from having anything to do with States' rights, was instead a call for an unprecedented expansion of federal power.

203 posted on 02/22/2006 3:04:18 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Dawgreg
Hello stan......and why did Lincoln think secession was RIGHT in 1848 and NOT 1861

No, Lincoln said that revolution was a right. But he didn't say winning your rebellion was a right, too. And in the end you lost.

222 posted on 02/22/2006 6:11:23 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Dawgreg
actually lincoln & his coven of thugs WANTED war. they made NO attempt to avoid it & thus a MILLION people needlessly died for lincolns dreams of conquest.

free dixie,sw

251 posted on 02/23/2006 8:48:55 AM PST by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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