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To: NYer
Slightly ironic, considering that St. Peter...the FOUNDER of the Catholic Church and Christs self declared "rock", was himself a married man who had children. Most of the apostles were married as well.

For a very long time, celibacy was seen as something that the godly should aspire to, but it wasn't a requirement for priesthood. The Second Council of Tours ordered the defrocking of married priests in the 6th century, but it was completely unenforced and was widely ignored...even by five Pope's. It wasn't until the 11th century that Pope Gregory declared that priests were actually required to take a vow of celibacy. His successor was the first to enforce it, selling the wives of priests into slavery and throwing their children into the street. Still, even four hundred years later, half of Catholic priests were married. Married priests weren't finally driven out until the Inquisition, when ANY sign of rebellion against the churches teachings were grounds for excommunication.

The true foundations of priestly celibacy lie in the old Catholic belief that sex makes us "unclean". Even when priests were allowed to marry, they were prohibited from taking confessions or handling the Eucharist for a day after sex because they were "corrupt" and unworthy of doing God's work. Eventually the Church decided that priests should always be doing God's work, and so shouldn't ever be having sex. That entire mindset has been put down by multiple Pope's over the past century who have declared previous teachings flawed, and that sex is a good and holy thing. Despite those declarations, one of its major results...priestly celibacy...is still with us. I suspect it has more to do with tradition today than anything else.
33 posted on 02/10/2006 4:57:13 PM PST by Arthalion
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To: Arthalion
Slightly ironic, considering that St. Peter...the FOUNDER of the Catholic Church and Christs self declared "rock", was himself a married man who had children. Most of the apostles were married as well.

You're right! Peter was married! He took a vow of marriage before being called into service by Jesus Christ. And ... he maintained that vow until his excrutiating death in the Forum Romanum. He never waivered. This is why the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches allow married men to enter the priesthood. Their first vow is to their wife and family; the second one is to the Church. Should the wife die, the priest never remarries (at least in the Eastern Catholic Churches).

As to the other disciples, Paul was celibate, as we know from 1 Corinthians 7:32-35 . Our Lord was also celibate and encouraged it as we know from Matthew 19:10-12

Am I missing something here? Which of the other disciples were married?

43 posted on 02/10/2006 5:28:23 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Arthalion
Slightly ironic, considering that St. Peter...the FOUNDER of the Catholic Church

Christ founded the Catholic Church not St. Peter.

and Christs self declared "rock", was himself a married man who had children.

St. Peter was at one time married. Scripture never mentions his wife by name and Scripture never mentions that he had children. In fact St. Clement of Alexandrias' The Stromata mentions the following in Book VII Chapter XI:

'They say, accordingly, that the blessed Peter, on seeing his wife led to death, rejoiced on account of her call and conveyance home, and called very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, "Remember thou the Lord." Such was the marriage of the blessed and their perfect disposition towards those dearest to them.

Thus also the apostle says, "that he who marries should be as though he married not," and deem his marriage free of inordinate affection, and inseparable from love to the Lord; to which the true husband exhorted his wife to cling on her departure out of this life to the Lord.'

Most of the apostles were married as well.

Scripture makes no mention of any of the other eleven being married. Scripture does mention that all of the Apostles gave up everything, including a wife if they happened to be married, in order to follow Christ.

Your revisionist history on the discipline of celibacy neglects to mention Canons XXVII and XXXIII of the Council of Elvira, circa 302 AD. You also fail to cite Canon III of the Second Council of Carthage, 390 AD:

"ut quod apostoli docuerunt, et ipsa servavit antiquitas nos quoque custodiamus"

The true foundations of priestly celibacy lie in the old Catholic belief that sex makes us "unclean".

The foundation of priestly celibacy lies in the Levitical priesthood of Melchisedech, in the Old Testament.

I suspect it has more to do with tradition today than anything else.

Don't kid yourself. You're simply ignorant of the topic being discussed.

56 posted on 02/10/2006 10:19:50 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Arthalion
If, as you charge, "The true foundations of priestly celibacy lie in the old Catholic belief that sex makes us "unclean," (1) Why have the ancient Catholic Churches of the East always had married clergy? And (2) Why does the Catholic Church regard Matrimony as a Sacrament, and sexual intercourse as a constitutive element of Matrimony, with the corollary that it can be a channel of grace and an aid to salvation?

I'll admit that there has been a lot of confusion and contradiction through the centuries, owing to the inroads made by heresies, from Manichaeism to Jansenism (and not even the saints were immune to these influences), but the doctrine of the Church has always insisted on Sacramentality of marital relations.

And when you speak of "uncleanness," -please understand that both in Judaism and Christianity, this is a ritual, not a moral category. For instance, contact with blood-- even animal blood --- is unclean, but not immoral. Emission of semen (even, for instance, in wet dreams) made a man ritually unclean, but not bad or wicked or evil.

The origins of this idea of ritual uncleanness are Biblical, but their meaning or purpose is unclear to me. In any case, ritual uncleanness, as a Jewish and Catholic concept, does not imply moral guilt.

96 posted on 02/11/2006 7:04:30 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Credo in Unam, Sanctam, Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam.)
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