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To: REactor
The problem is not "national foundations". The problem is in economy. You can create a nation only when you have either of the two (and preferably both) things:

1. cultural, religious etc. affinity 2. mutual interests.

As a real insider* of the German-French relationship I can tell you that most of the Frogs indeed see cultural affinity between Germany and France. I.e. all of the Alsatian people can speak German since it is their mother tongue no matter if they feel themselves as real Frenchmen or not. Most of the French are fed up with their central gouvernment and would prefer a more federal structure. Therefore the idea of the "Europe of the regions" is something that seems to be extremely "sexy" to them. Espechially to those who move something. Same thing in Germany. We Swabians (Germans from south-west Germany) are totally pi**ed to help people in the German east that are ethnically really completely different (every guy from the Alsace is for sure much closer to me than a "compatriot" from Brandenburg i.e.) with roundabout 1,5 trillion (not billion - trillion) Euros! It would give us the chance to free ourselves from old structures to start something new and better. Something with more capitalism and more freedom. I do not have anything against a blown-up welfare state in the east German "regions" or anywhere else, as long as they pay themselves for it.

This is something that only very few from the "outside" can understand: The capable and effective parts of Germany and France hope to be freed from their national structures. Ask a Bavarian if he feels Bavarian or German. He will tell you: "Mir send mir" (dialect: "We are we" - that means he is a Bavarian and nothing else). The German nation is a artificial product of Prussian Realpolitik that doesn't work anymore. It is a sad truth: Those who bring performance in western Europe are sucked out by a swarm of parasites from the poorer parts. This is not different between Germany and France. Therefore a economical splintering into regions could be the key to a fundamental system change.

Furthermore it is obvious that a confederation of two middle powers like Germany and France plus the Benelux would create a much more powerful "global player" that can defend its interests with more plausibility than in the moment.

I am well aware that many of your compatriots feel such a development as a threat. One thing is for sure - neither Germany or France are a danger to their neighbours anymore. We are healed from our auto-erotic phantasies of world dominance. If such a "confederation" comes true, it will be because of internal reasons and for sure not because of millitary power i.e..

As somebody who is believing into the possibility of a better Europe I think that it is important for Poland to keep all doors open. During the past 40 years we had a fundamental change between the attitudes of Germany and France. This will also be possible with Germany and Poland if the right people are "writing the plot". We have to overcome the faults of the past and have to start building up something new and better. I have to admit that in the moment the biggest deficits in this process are on the German side, since the "Bundesländer" near the Polish boarder are ruled by idiots, but this is no reason not to start every day a new try.

In the current situation this "core" is something that will not be enforceable by democratic means in Poland. I am well aware that the new found national sovereignty is something really precious to Poles. Furthermore the current economic state doesn't allow a membership either. This will change soon and I believe that the cultural affinity will move towards western Europe and in return to Poland (from the western side) which would be no fault. Than you can decide what you want to do or not. You Poles do not have to be a member of such a conferation but you can if you want to.

* My uncle is living near Paris with his French wife and French kids and I am doing lots of business in Alsace-Lorraine.

17 posted on 02/14/2006 12:42:58 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (O tempora! O mores!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
The German nation is a artificial product of Prussian Realpolitik that doesn't work anymore. ... Therefore a economical splintering into regions could be the key to a fundamental system change.

Wow! This is really something. I have the impression that you must be rather a minority among your countrymen. German nation an artificial product? Well, maybe in southern Germany this attitude is more widespread, but I really doubt if majority of Germans share that view.

But more important point is that most of nations of Europe are not ready to see their nationhood as an artificial invention, and first among them is in my opinion France. What you say about Europe of regions is a beautiful utopia, but how are you going to convince the French, many of whom voted for LePen that their nation is an just an artefact?

From all the nations of Europe the Germans seem to be best equipped (due to their history) to form federation of regions (though I doubt that it looks as rosy as you've made it out), but all the other nations - and France and Britain in the first place- want simply an organization that would make the trade and business easier and would serve as a straitjacket for all those who'd think about WW III in Europe.

As to the core of EU - I'm not against it, I think Poland would be even better off in such situation. I just doubt if this can be done. And if it can be done it may mean the end of the EU as we know it. The core would probably do everything to isolate itself from the outer EU - they would have to guard their welfare state socialism against the evil Polish plumbers and other barbarian scum.;)

In conclusion: we don't need a very tight union that doesn't work, we need a loose union that actually works. Free-trade European zone would be best.

19 posted on 02/14/2006 3:41:31 PM PST by REactor
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To: Atlantic Bridge
As a real insider* of the German-French relationship I can tell you that most of the Frogs indeed see cultural affinity between Germany and France. I.e. all of the Alsatian people can speak German since it is their mother tongue no matter if they feel themselves as real Frenchmen or not.

:) Well German-alsatian relations, I can believe that:) I also heard that many Germans learn and speak French but the number of ethnic Frenchmen who speak German is lower than those who speak Arabic. Cultural affinity? Be serious. There are two main traits of every culture that can be a base of affinity: language and religion. You have different languages and you have no religion. So what's the base of this affinity? Belief in the religion of tradeunionism or the human rights? Get a life.

The only glue that can hold Europe together is money and free trade.

20 posted on 02/14/2006 4:45:11 PM PST by REactor
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