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Eden and Evolution
The Washington Post ^ | February 5, 2005 | Shankar Vedantam

Posted on 02/06/2006 5:02:42 PM PST by CobaltBlue

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To: CobaltBlue; VadeRetro
The peppered moth story has too many problems to be taught with a straight face.

That's a wild overstatement:

Icon of Obfuscation - Peppered Moths

The story of the peppered moth

FINE TUNING THE PEPPERED MOTH PARADIGM

Moonshine: Why the Peppered Moth Remains an Icon of Evolution

LETTER: Charges of fraud misleading

I don't have a problem with teaching it as an example of science gone wrong.

I do have a problem with that, because that's an inaccurate description.

61 posted on 02/06/2006 8:05:48 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Rudder

Abiogenesis is probably best left to the chemists.

Even in biology, though, it's really not a part of evolution.


62 posted on 02/06/2006 8:06:32 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: RightWhale

No, evolution does not imply progress.

Think about blind fish, parasites and such.


63 posted on 02/06/2006 8:07:56 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: RightWhale
When I looked it up, the book said progress, among other meanings.

In one of the non-scientific meanings of the word, perhaps, as in "the evolution of Greek civilization". If it claimed that the word "evolution" meant "progress" in the context of biological change, then it's just wrong.

64 posted on 02/06/2006 8:09:35 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: From many - one.

That is merely one meaning, not the only meaning. In root the word means to turn out, which I take to mean like bread dough. The same stuff is there all along, but it just looks and acts different.


65 posted on 02/06/2006 8:10:49 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: Ichneumon

They also use evolution in the science of linguistics to mean the diachronic change of the language. Whether the language improves with evolution is doubtful.


66 posted on 02/06/2006 8:12:58 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: Rudder; VadeRetro
Evolution takes many slings and arrrows because it doesn't explain the origins of life. Yet I agree somewhat with our critics: Biology should not avoid the topic, but is in a good position to pursue it (for example: the Miller-Urey demonstration in 1953).

There's a difference between *evolution*, and biology in general. Abiogenesis is a valid topic in biology, but it's still a topic independent of evolution, pretty much by definition. Biological evolution deals with the process of replication -- no replication, no evolution. So whatever the process(es) might be which gave rise to the first replicating thing, they didn't involve evolutionary processes, because being "pre-replication", they were "pre-evolution" as well.

67 posted on 02/06/2006 8:14:17 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

Thanks, Ichneumon, I knew I could count on you to set me straight! ;^)

But, still, why give creationists any ammunition? The article I linked from Whole Earth (Craig Holdrege) wasn't written by a creationist.

A longer version of the story, with photos, as printed in Elemente der Naturwissenschaft 70: 39-51, 1999
http://natureinstitute.org/txt/ch/moth.htm


68 posted on 02/06/2006 8:15:10 PM PST by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: Ken H
Hitler disingenuously used both associations with popular science and associations with popular religion to hawk his ideas. However, I think the genealogy of his ideas has indirect Christian influence, insofar as Hegelian philosophy (from which it is my understanding Nazism and Theosophy are heavily derived) had Christian influence.

Aside, I read the article last night, and there is interesting stuff to notice regarding Dawkins, who is apparently now forgetting much of what actual work made him famous. The quip about donating to natural disaster relief being anti-Darwinian is quite at odds of his earlier writing on the nature of altruism.

He's really pushing socialism hard, and conservatives who focuses on evolution's supposed ideological role in deadly movements like Nazism and Communism are really missing the boat on this. It really looks like the next thing is going to be murdering (or "involuntarily euthanizing") people to eliminate the supposed ultimate evil of pain that the "monsters" that are living beings harbor. My two bits.
69 posted on 02/06/2006 8:16:21 PM PST by illinoissmith
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To: Rudder
Never did LSD, but at that time I was always in love and the objects were everywhere. The first few minutes of the movie were so bad, I lost interest and the hormones easily won the contest :-)
70 posted on 02/06/2006 8:18:18 PM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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To: Ichneumon

But the jump from amino acids to self-replicating proteins is just too big, without more -- I think it leaves a false impression to say that it's not.

And it certainly gives ammunition to creationists.


71 posted on 02/06/2006 8:18:38 PM PST by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: webstersII

That depends on what your goal is.


72 posted on 02/06/2006 8:19:52 PM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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To: Ichneumon

Conclusion from Holdrege's article - I think this is completely valid reasoning.

Conclusion
For decades the peppered moth has been a standard classroom and textbook example of evolution. Millions of students have learned this "living proof" of natural selection. The story they have been, and are, being told is most likely false, or to put it more mildly, filled with half-truths. This is not because teachers and writers are intentionally lying, or hiding and bending facts, but because the example is only brought to prove a point, so that complications appear extraneous to the argument (if not to the truth). Moreover, the idea of natural selection has become so ingrained into the modern mind that it can become like a pair of spectacles that one doesn't remove anymore. Concepts then become axiomatic and science ends up being promulgated in a dogmatic form. As a correlate, the complex and rich phenomena of nature degenerate, as it were, into mere instances of overriding principles. Instead of illuminating, the idea becomes, in Goethe's words, a "lethal generality" (Goethe 1995, p. 61).

This tendency toward solidification is not what keeps science alive. Vitality in science comes from researchers doubting conclusions, making new observations and constructing new experiments, from scientists thinking original ideas that break through the constrictions of dominant paradigms. Science teaching need not only serve the codified "body of knowledge." It can also serve ongoing exploration and the continual renewal of ideas. Since there is "more to melanism than meets the eye," peppered moth research can be an excellent teacher of the living scientific process.


73 posted on 02/06/2006 8:20:15 PM PST by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: From many - one.; RightWhale

How about evolution and survival of the fittest? Blind fish have evolved like that because they don't need to see in the dark underwater caves. When the strength of one modality decreases, other modalities become stronger.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/blindfish2004.html


74 posted on 02/06/2006 8:29:39 PM PST by phantomworker ("Grow up and die right.")
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To: furball4paws
I was always in love and the objects were everywhere.

Ohhh, objects...

Make me write bad checks, sweety...

Have I lost the thrust of this thread...?

75 posted on 02/06/2006 8:31:03 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Rudder

Does it have one?


76 posted on 02/06/2006 8:34:32 PM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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To: Ichneumon
There's a difference between *evolution*, and biology in general. Abiogenesis is a valid topic in biology, but it's still a topic independent of evolution...

Absolutely.

My statements are always made with that as an a priori assumption.

77 posted on 02/06/2006 8:38:11 PM PST by Rudder
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To: furball4paws
Does it have one?

Had we but world enough and...

Uh oh, it's gender ID time...

Are you a woman, woman?

78 posted on 02/06/2006 8:48:07 PM PST by Rudder
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To: PatrickHenry

OK, four hours since the article was posted, and no food fight.

To me, that means something. Probably something positive.

Maybe, for creationists, all they really want is "respect." I don't know exactly what that means, but maybe they don't really want more than to have their ideas and their sensibilities treated as something other than complete nonsense? (Multiculturalism and all that.)

Or maybe it's just a really boring article . . . .

Or maybe they just refuse to register with the WashPost to read it . . . .


79 posted on 02/06/2006 8:49:22 PM PST by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: CobaltBlue
Or maybe it's just a really boring article . . . .

Nahh. I've been keeping up with this topic, not too many followers, I should add, and it's a fruitful topic for further research.

It apparently doesn't provoke combat from the luddites, and that's a shame.

80 posted on 02/06/2006 8:54:24 PM PST by Rudder
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