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IkhwanWeb.com ^ | 2-5-06 | Daniel Williams

[starbase]

When the German army got stuck at the gates of Moscow, what Western resistance caused it in 1941, maybe French Vichy regime? And Germans gained less than Napoleon - he at least took Moscow before his defeat.

In your desperation to prove an unprovable point, you are back tracking and tripping over previously established points.

I already pointed out that the Nazi forces throughout all of Western Europe (29 divisions, which I have also already pointed out) could have joined the Eastern forces and crushed Moscow but for the fact that they had to fight the United States.

Plus, as I've already pointed out, without 1000 bomber raids smashing and crushing Germany industry every day, all that hard working German genius would have been filling the air with new German Luftwaffe and the ground with new divisions of Panzers. Massive reinforcements plus unrestricted German industrial output would have defeated Russia easily.

But I already made these points earlier. I know it's the fashion in Europe now to try and rewrite history and show no gratitude to the United States, but reality won't cooperate with you.

Simply put, there is no way Russia or Europe would have won without the United States. It just wasn't possible.

[A. Pole]

I already pointed out that the Nazi forces throughout all of Western Europe (29 divisions, which I have also already pointed out) could have joined the Eastern forces and crushed Moscow but for the fact that they had to fight the United States.

In 1941? Do you know home many divisions were on the eastern front? Do you know how the quality of this divisions compared to the ones in Soviet Russia?

I DO NOT DENY that moving all these divisions to the east could have change the outcome, but doubt that it was certain.

[A. Pole]

Plus, as I've already pointed out, without 1000 bomber raids smashing and crushing Germany industry every day

In 1941?

[starbase]

Well this is my last reply to this conversation. I'm not talking about specific dates but about whether the US is in the war at all.

Surely you don't need me to break it down to such little bites as to say IF the Nazis were driven back from Moscow, and IF the Western European Nazi divisions joined them in say, Poland, and IF they counter attacked and started heading back to Moscow, and IF at that time there were not the bombing raids that there were in the OTHER scenario where the US was IN the war, THEN the Nazis would have won.

But I think you're playing dumb with me to drag out the analysis.

Cheers,

starbase

[starbase]

I missed this post but my summary post still holds.

starbase

[A. Pole]

Well this is my last reply to this conversation. I'm not talking about specific dates but about whether the US is in the war at all.

Dates DO MATTER. German advance into Soviet Russia was stopped BEFORE Americans got involved in Europe. Already in 1942 the tide of war started to turn against Germany.

I think that the US involvement in Europe saved Western Europe from Communism and it was VERY GOOD thing.

[A. Pole]

the Nazis would have won.

Or maybe they would fight a couple of years longer and still lose. We do not know it.

[A. Pole]

the Nazis would have won.

Or maybe they would fight a couple of years longer and still lose. We do not know it.

Germans were not so strong. They defeated French by the surprise, they defeated Poles, Serbs and Greeks because indeed they were much stronger than these three nations.

They made spectacular gains in Russia in the first few months because Soviet Army was not prepared and the population was demoralized and not motivated to fight at first.

But then they run out of steam. USA joined the fray AFTER.