Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: sangrila
I believe you are starting to resemble the proverbial Christmas turkey on this argument. Full of crap. Like I said before, go back and study the debates prior to the framing of the constitution. And how conveniently you forget that the states were all recognized, and I quote from article one of the Paris Peace treaty of 1783 - "His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."

Now the States didn't give up their sovereignty when they ratified the Constitution, they only ceeded certain enumerated limited powers to the Central Government. Had they wished for a strong central government they would've given up all their sovereignty. But wanting the power to remain in the hands of the people, they decided on limiting the scope and purview of the Federal Government. Go back and read the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, and then come tell me if the Founders wanted a strong central government.

Federal - shared power
Ratify - Agree to.

So your premise that the States were willing to accept a strong Central Government is flawed, and you really need to do more study on the subject.

254 posted on 02/06/2006 5:30:25 PM PST by Colt .45 (Navy Veteran - Pride in my Southern Ancestry! Chance favors the prepared mind.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 170 | View Replies ]


To: Colt .45

Don't start calling me names because you are angry that your grandpappy's side lost the war. I have relatives who fought on both sides of the conflict, but unlike you I've gotten over things that happened 150 years ago. If you want to tell me that The Constitution did not strenghthen the weak government that existed under the Articles of Confederation,then I will in turn tell you that you nothing about the subject. I realize that their were people in the debate who wantred power to reside in the states. The fact is the constitution was ratified to strengthen a weak federal government, otherwise they would have kept the AOC if they wanted states to be stronger than the federal government. The Federal Government could not even raise an Army under the AOC.

This issue, and the argument you and other posters raised that the founders would not have defined cecession as an illegal act is adressed by Alexander Hamilton in Federalist #15:








"It is a singular instance of the capriciousness of the human mind, that after all the admonitions we have had from experience on this head, there should still be found men who object to the new Constitution, for deviating from a principle which has been found the bane of the old, and which is in itself evidently incompatible with the idea of GOVERNMENT; a principle, in short, which, if it is to be executed at all, must substitute the violent and sanguinary agency of the sword to the mild influence of the magistracy."

"There is nothing absurd or impracticable in the idea of a league or alliance between independent nations for certain defined purposes precisely stated in a treaty regulating all the details of time, place, circumstance, and quantity; leaving nothing to future discretion; and depending for its execution on the good faith of the parties. Compacts of this kind exist among all civilized nations, subject to the usual vicissitudes of peace and war, of observance and non-observance, as the interests or passions of the contracting powers dictate. In the early part of the present century there was an epidemical rage in Europe for this species of compacts, from which the politicians of the times fondly hoped for benefits which were never realized. With a view to establishing the equilibrium of power and the peace of that part of the world, all the resources of negotiation were exhausted, and triple and quadruple alliances were formed; but they were scarcely formed before they were broken, giving an instructive but afflicting lesson to mankind, how little dependence is to be placed on treaties which have no other sanction than the obligations of good faith, and which oppose general considerations of peace and justice to the impulse of any immediate interest or passion."

"If the particular States in this country are disposed to stand in a similar relation to each other, and to drop the project of a general DISCRETIONARY SUPERINTENDENCE, the scheme would indeed be pernicious, and would entail upon us all the mischiefs which have been enumerated under the first head; but it would have the merit of being, at least, consistent and practicable Abandoning all views towards a confederate government, this would bring us to a simple alliance offensive and defensive; and would place us in a situation to be alternate friends and enemies of each other, as our mutual jealousies and rivalships, nourished by the intrigues of foreign nations, should prescribe to us."

"But if we are unwilling to be placed in this perilous situation; if we still will adhere to the design of a national government, or, which is the same thing, of a superintending power, under the direction of a common council, we must resolve to incorporate into our plan those ingredients which may be considered as forming the characteristic difference between a league and a government; we must extend the authority of the Union to the persons of the citizens, -- the only proper objects of government."

"Government implies the power of making laws. It is essential to the idea of a law, that it be attended with a sanction; or, in other words, a penalty or punishment for disobedience. If there be no penalty annexed to disobedience, the resolutions or commands which pretend to be laws will, in fact, amount to nothing more than advice or recommendation. This penalty, whatever it may be, can only be inflicted in two ways: by the agency of the courts and ministers of justice, or by military force; by the COERCION of the magistracy, or by the COERCION of arms. The first kind can evidently apply only to men; the last kind must of necessity, be employed against bodies politic, or communities, or States. It is evident that there is no process of a court by which the observance of the laws can, in the last resort, be enforced. Sentences may be denounced against them for violations of their duty; but these sentences can only be carried into execution by the sword. In an association where the general authority is confined to the collective bodies of the communities, that compose it, every breach of the laws must involve a state of war; and military execution must become the only instrument of civil obedience. Such a state of things can certainly not deserve the name of government, nor would any prudent man choose to commit his happiness to it."




264 posted on 02/06/2006 10:16:11 PM PST by sangrila
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson