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The Liberal Project (economic and social classic liberal platform for conservatives in NZ)
The Press (New Zealand) (via act.org.nz) ^ | 1 February 2006 | Catherine Judd

Posted on 01/31/2006 7:24:45 PM PST by NZerFromHK

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Now I know the title may sound uncomfortable to our American friends, but remember "liberal" in the New Zealand context means policies of Ronald Reagan: free market, and individual choice and responsbilities rather than nanny state.
1 posted on 01/31/2006 7:24:48 PM PST by NZerFromHK
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To: Fair Go; Heatseeker; okie01; Sam Gamgee; shaggy eel; goldstategop

Talk of New Zealand's political firection ping!


2 posted on 01/31/2006 7:28:38 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: NZerFromHK
I was really impressed by the agricultural system there: the only totally free market farm system the world has ever seen: no subsidies, no tariffs, no protectionism. They even fund their own research, which means they can experiment with such things as genetics, which the Greens hate. They have been able to get Monterey pines to grow on a 23-year cycle (US farm trees, other than pulpwood, take 40 years).
3 posted on 01/31/2006 7:31:13 PM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: NZerFromHK

New Zealand's political centre is generally a little different from the United States. On military/foreign/defence matters, we are definitely deep into the loony Left - not surprising given that our position could "afford" us the luxury of leftist delusions. On trade and agricultural/industrial regulations, we are at where the most free-market promoting conservative Republicans stand.

On social welfare, we are a bit to the left of you but not as left as Canada. We have dual public and private health care systems although the left in power in Wellington has been trying to undermine it by stealth.

In general, New Zealand's political spectrum translates into the United States is like:

1) National Party - major centre-right party = most of right-wing half of US Democrats, plus the Rockefeller Democrats. Its most conservative minority, the Don Brash faction, corresponds to mainstream Republicans

2) ACT Party - major free market party = mainstream to conservative Republicans but minus the Christian votes, plus a bit of Libertarian Party.

3) Labour Party - major centre-left party = left-wing half of US Democratic Party, and its most conservative minority would have been moderate Democrats, and the most right-wing member would correspond to RINOs.

4) Progressive Coalition - social democratic party = oldline Mondale Democrats if they agree to fullscale social welfare state, plus Howard Dean Democrats who emphasis works on social welfare policies.

5) Green Party - major left-wing party = Ralph Nader plus any Democrats to the left of Cindy Sheehan.

6) United Future - chruch-going "centrist" party = RINOs and moderate Democrats.

7) New Zealand First Party = Pat Buchanan.


4 posted on 01/31/2006 7:40:04 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: BlazingArizona

This is why New Zealand is not on a whole to the left of the US on each and every issue. I think bureaucracy administration, trade policies, and agricultural and industrial policies are the areas NZ is more conservative. But no doubt any defence hawks would be treated as a parish in this country, and NZ does have a naive worldview of wanting to "trade freely with everyone" eg selling lamb to Iran and tarde with Cuba or North Korea.


5 posted on 01/31/2006 7:43:02 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: NZerFromHK

All too often North Americans use the term "liberalism" when the term "hedonism" would be more appropriate.


6 posted on 01/31/2006 7:59:31 PM PST by Fair Go
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To: Fair Go

Or to put it in a lazy man's guide, the North American definition of social liberalism is "When I visit Dymocks, I will be able to buy a copy of gay paedophilic porn magazine, but not Daniel Pipe's books dissenting from 'established intellectual consensus' on Islam, and when I relax at their cafes, I will be able to buy 'hash' but not hamburgers."


7 posted on 01/31/2006 8:04:41 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: NZerFromHK

Very well said.


8 posted on 01/31/2006 8:11:07 PM PST by Fair Go
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To: NZerFromHK
It does indeed get confusing. Same idea as in the days of the Soviet Union. A conservative was the old communist guard and a liberal was a fighter for democracy and capitalism.

I sent a note your way one day as I was watching a Healthcare Conference coverage on CPAC. It was recorded and actually took place in November. There were a few Kiwis at this conference in Vancouver talking about their mixed delivery health system. Something Canada is in denial of, even though it is already taking place in Quebec with doctors opting out of the public system.

You guys have a form of proportional representation, correct? How is it working for you?
9 posted on 01/31/2006 10:34:32 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: BlazingArizona
I don't know if you have ever watched "Bullshit" on Showtime. Penn and Teller had an episode on genetically modified food. And guess what, it isn't the Frankenstein story the clueless Greens would have you and I believe.

If only Canada and the US could adopt such an agricultural system.
10 posted on 01/31/2006 10:36:30 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Proportional representation favours the Left no doubt, because this arrangement gives power to parties and politicians who are avtivist in stances, and in the postmodern West the type of activist politics people love is leftist. When MMP was instituted in 1996, this marked the time when it becomes harder for the conservatives to govern because arithmetrically, we can't compete with the Left on votes proportions (they have naturally 52% versus conservatives' 48%). The same thing happens to Mother Britain - since the 1960s it has been estimated the conservatives could best no more than 45% of votes.

In Canada, under the current First Past the Post system you have the Liberals in power 75% of the time. Had you used MMP, this would have meant the Liberals, in coalition with the NDP, being in permanent governance!


11 posted on 02/01/2006 12:04:11 AM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: NZerFromHK
Yes, there is also an admirable lack of bureaucracy everywhere. What Americans dislike is NZ's pacifist foreign policy, which seems to have arisen from the searing experience of World War I, when the British dispatched NZ troops to Turkey, where they were wiped out. This experience soured New Zealand on war, not to mention its formerly close relationship with Mother England. Even small towns in NZ have elaborate WW I memorials to this day.
12 posted on 02/01/2006 5:41:28 AM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: NZerFromHK

I asked you what you thought just in case you were a supporter. I am not. I use to be, until British Columbia voted on whether to adopt it. The more a looked into it, the more I realized it would result in the left allying together and keeping conservatives out of power forever.

You are right. Liberal support of 30% plus Bloc of 10% plus NDP of 18% = 58% vs 41% conservatives (if you lump the greens in with the CPC).


13 posted on 02/01/2006 12:49:16 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: BlazingArizona
What happened in Gallipoli still resonates bitterness in NZ and Australia. It was shameful. But it seems the Aussies have gotten over it.
14 posted on 02/01/2006 12:50:25 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Certainly I don't love proportional representation. To anyone who thinks proportional representation represents a more democratic representation of people's will, they are deluded.

My ideal political system is the American republican system, and proportional election model represents an oligarchic rule by elites misguised as activist-politicians.


15 posted on 02/01/2006 3:28:52 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: NZerFromHK

Parliamentary systems are far superior to PR, but I agree that American republicanism is the best system. I think the creators of the US constitution warned about mob rule systems of government such as PR.


16 posted on 02/01/2006 4:38:32 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee
Australia has the experience of being under direct threat in the Second World War, which New Zealand did not have. I think Australians just have a better understanding of the fact that you fight alongside your allies, because one day you might need them fighting alongside you.

While New Zealand has provided fine service in some wars, they still military action as something you undertake to protect others, not out of self protection.

17 posted on 02/03/2006 2:56:37 AM PST by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: BlazingArizona

I'm interested that you trace NZ's current policy back to World War 1. I'm sure there were strong pacifist sentiments in NZ between wars. But pacifism and isolationism were a common reaction to WW1 - think of the efforts Britain took to avoid war with Germany prior to WW2, or indeed the fact that the US didn't join the war till attacked in 1941. None of that stopped young Brits, Americans, Kiwis, Aussies, Indians et al serving their countries with distinction from 1939-45, and for many of those countries again in Korea and Vietnam.

I don't agree that WW1 "soured" NZ on Britain. As he declared war in 1939, our Prime Minister said we "range ourselves without fear by Britain. Where she goes, we go; where she stands, we stand." Sound sour to you? I'd be tempted to look much later for the psychological break - probably to Britain joining the EEC in the early 1970s.


18 posted on 02/03/2006 3:23:15 PM PST by Aneirin
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To: naturalman1975

New Zealand's participation in WW2 was clearly about self-protection, not just about protecting others. It was part of the collective security of the British Empire, on which our trade routes and economic life then depended. And it was understood as such. New Zealanders would not have been prepared to make such sacrifices otherwise.


19 posted on 02/03/2006 3:44:30 PM PST by Aneirin
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To: Aneirin
I'm interested that you trace NZ's current policy back to World War 1. I'm sure there were strong pacifist sentiments in NZ between wars. But pacifism and isolationism were a common reaction to WW1 - think of the efforts Britain took to avoid war with Germany prior to WW2, or indeed the fact that the US didn't join the war till attacked in 1941. None of that stopped young Brits, Americans, Kiwis, Aussies, Indians et al serving their countries with distinction from 1939-45, and for many of those countries again in Korea and Vietnam.

I'm only reporting what I saw. Though Kiwis served honorably in WW II, especially as they saw the Japanese asland-hoppiong advance pushing toward them, the WW I esperience seems to have meant much more to the national spirit. Why else would every little town have a WW I memorial, while in a month I saw precisely one WW II memorial (dedicated to the USMC deployment to Guadalcanal, which trained near Wellington). A succession of films like "Chunuk Bair" carry the same theme.

I asked New Zealanders in different walks of life about this. The consensus seems to be that WW I represented the nation's first big break with Britain. Before that, NZ had faithfully sent troops to battle whomever Queen Victoria had designated as the fuzzy-wuzzies of the moment.

The second big break with Britain came in the early Sixties, when Britain joined the EU and the farm quotas it imposed on all countries not part of the great socialist experiment. NZ suddenly found itself out in the cold, abandoned by the Old Country. At that point, NZ decided to rebrand itself as a Pacific nation.

So why is most NZ lamb sold to the Arab world today? Nothing ideological is involved; despite high US consumer demand, the American farm lobby imposes stiff quotas on NZ agriculture. When socialists can't compete in the open market, they get the government to 'fix' things.

20 posted on 02/03/2006 4:08:16 PM PST by BlazingArizona
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