You've obviously not heard of the 'Passion Play'. This is performed every year I guess.
Posted on 01/30/2006 8:33:22 AM PST by liberallarry
That's my point. This world is a really strange place. No need to go to other planets to find it.
"You lecture posters for mocking Hinduism, and say "Anyone who ridicules Hinduism mocks his own beliefs, as well, in my opinion," one line down from where you ridiculed the Jewish and Christian faiths.
"
I ridiculed no faith. I asked whether the person believed in the 6000 year old Genesis story. Many Christians do believe that. I mean no ridicule by my question.
Many Jews and Christians do not put such dates on Genesis.
Interesting comments from a "godless athiest"
CROM!
ooOOOohhhh Shiney!
Then, I read you wrong and owe you an apology. I had assumed that the "6000 year" question was one of mocking ridicule that anyone could hold such beliefs.
I hope it does...
"While I won't say specifically 6,000 on the nose, I will say that I believe that the events of Genesis happened within thousands or tens of thousands of years and that Hinduism is a later derivative of fertile crescent polytheism.
There are two broad views of religion: that monotheism was the original faith with polytheism being a "de"-volution of this original faith...and that animistic polytheism was the original faith and that monotheism is an evolution of it. Clearly, I believe the former to be the case."
It's strange. In my own country, a country that was founded on the Judeo-Chrisitan work ethic/values, I often times feel like a foreigner. I guess if I were Hindu and my country proudly allowed and/or advocated a display like this, I would be very proud.
You've obviously not heard of the 'Passion Play'. This is performed every year I guess.
Exactly.
Long ago, I saw an English sci-fi movie in which an ancient relic is discovered in a subway excavation. Turns out we are all descendents of Martian colonizers and its the job of the relics to return us all to the old ways. A very good movie, very disturbing.
I had the same feelings when I saw this image.
"Yes and no. This "christian" practice was extra-Biblical, and, in fact, similiar early practices were criticised as unnecessary and distracting by St. Paul. (Although he did say to tolerate them, to a limited degree.)
"
Nevertheless, Christians did them. That's my only point on the subject. I'm not making a judgment on whether the practice had Biblical support...only pointing out that such practices are not so alien, after all.
"That's a weird statement coming from as avowed atheist.
"
Not really. I acknowledge that religion plays a major role in human society. Hinduism and Christianity are both classed as great religions, along with Judaism, Buddhism and Islam. The word "great" also means large, which is the way I'm using it.
"I had assumed that the "6000 year" question was one of mocking ridicule that anyone could hold such beliefs.
"
Not at all. I don't believe it, but that does not mean that many do believe it. I don't believe the Hindu deities exist, either, but I realize that Hindus do. I needn't believe in a religion's tenets to have respect for the people who do.
It is not always the case that a non-believer who discusses and disagrees with a particular religion lacks respect for the followers of that religion. It is certainly not in my case.
The photo posted is very reminicent of a scene out of the "Ten Commandments". Just replace the statue with a Golden Calf. God is not pleased.
If you are going to insult other religions, at least be more creative.
"Christians did them. That's my only point on the subject. I'm not making a judgment on whether the practice had Biblical support...only pointing out that such practices are not so alien, after all."
And that is a fair point, and quite correct.
I am just cautious to make the distinction between what Christians DO and what they are commanded to do.
In particular, I am sensitive to the tendancy of people to make equivolent how the Roman Catholic Church forced Christianity at the point of the spear/rifle with how Islam does the same today.
The distiction to be made, of course, is that what the RCC did was directly contrary to Christian scripture (with its emphasis on free acceptance) vs. forced conversion being a direct mandate of the texts of Islam.
I have no illusions of how far Christians fall from their mandate.
"God is not pleased."
Well, according to your faith, that's true. Hinduism has other beliefs, and building such large statues is part of those beliefs. They believe that their deities are pleased by such, so they honor them by erecting these statues.
And there it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murugan
In the Hindu epics
The first elaborate account of Kartikeya's origin occurs in the Mahabharata. In a complicated story, he is said to heve been born from Agni and his wife after the latter impersonated the six of the seven wives of the seven sages. The actual wives then become the Pleiades. Kartikeya is said to have been born to destroy the Asura Mahisha.(In latter mythology, Mahisha became the adversary of Durga). Indra attacks Kartikeya as he see the latter as a threat, until Shiva intervenes and makes Kartikeya the commander-in-chief of the army of the Devas. He is also married to Devasena - Indra's daughter. The origin of this marriage lies probably in the punning of 'Deva-sena-pati'. It can mean either lord of Devasena or Lord of the army(sena) of Devas.
The Ramayana version is closer to the stories told in the Puranas discussed below.
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In the Hindu puranas
Though slightly varying verisons occur in the Puranas, they broadly follow the same pattern. (By this period, the identification of Shiva/Rudra with Agni, that can be traced back to the Vedas and Brahmanas, had clearly made Kartikeya the son of Shiva.)
The universe is said to be terrorised by the Asura Taraka. The Devas are assured that only a son of Shiva can destroy the demon. The Devas manage to get Shiva married to Parvati and yet no child is born for a long time. Finally, Shiva hands over his effulgence to Agni, as he alone is capable of handling it till it becomes the desired offspring. But even Agni tortured by its heat hands it over to Ganga who in turn deposits it in a lake in a forest of reeds(Shara). The child is finally born in this forest(vana) with six faces. He is first spotted and cared for by six women reprsenting the Pleiades - Kartika in Sanskrit. He thus gets named Kartikeya. As a young lad, he destroys Taraka. As this youthful saviour he is called Kumara(Youth in Sanskrit).
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In Sanskrit literature
The birth of Kartikeya is treated in great detail by Kalidasa in one of the greatest Sanskrit epics - Kumaarasambhavam. The story here is essentially same as the one found in the Sanskrit Puranas.
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The adoration of Kartikeya
Historically, Kartikeya enjoyed immense popularity in the Indian subcontinent. One of the major Puranas, the Skanda Purana is dedicated to him. In the Bhagavad-Gita(Ch.10, Verse 24) Krishna, explaining his omnipresence, says - "Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war".
His presence in the religious and cultural sphere can be seen at least from the Gupta age. Two of the Gupta kings, Kumaragupta and Skandagupta were named after him. He is seen in the Gupta sculptures and in the temples of Ellora and Elephanta.As the commander of the divine armies, he became the patron of the ruling classes. His youth, beauty and bravery was much celebrated in the Sanskrit works like the Katha-Saritsagara. Kalidasa chose his birth as the subject of one of his epics.
However, his popularity in the north India saw a great erosion from the middle ages. He slowly vanished from the scene and is today virtually unknown in these areas except in scholarly circles.The last vestige can be seen only in Bengal where he is worshipped during the Durga Puja along with Durga. This suprising change may perhaps be attributed to the fact that he was stongly associated with the ruling classes and from the middle ages most of the ruling houses were Muslims.
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In Tamil land
In the south of India, it is a different story. Kartikeya, known as Murukan, has enjoyed continuos popularity with all classes of society right from the Sangam age. This lead to the more elaborate accounts of his mythology in Tamil.
The most popular and erudite, the Kanda-Puranam (Sanskrit Skanda-puranam), is by Kacchiappa Sivachariyar(1350-1420 A.D.). A scholar in Tamil and Sanskrit, he was a votary of Shaiva Siddhanta. Based mainly on the Sanskrit Skanda-purana, this Tamil epic, makes Kartikeya the destroyer of Taraka but also of his elder and more powerful demonic brothers, Shoorapadman and Simha-mukhan. Shiva let out a stream of fire from his third eye on his forehead, that split into six streams. Each landed on a lotus in a lake called Saravana Poigai. Six women, called Karthigai Pengal (literally Woman of the Pleiades) saw the babies and each took one with her to look after. On the day of Karthigai, Parvati united the six children into a six-headed child, unable to cuddle all of them together. This is also the origin of a common Tamil name of the deity, Arumugan or Shanmugan, which literally means "one who has six faces". Apart from the festival of Karthigai, the Thaipusam festival, celebrated by Tamil communities worldwide, commemorates the day he was given a vel (lance) by his mother Parvati in order to vanquish the demons.
He married two deities, Valli and Devayani. The latter is identical to Devasena and the former is a daughter of a tribal chief. However, other Hindu legends he is unmarried, and call him Kumaraswami (Kumara meaning a bachelor and Swami meaning God)
Kartikeya rides a peacock and wields a bow in battle. The lance (called vel in Tamil) is a weapon closely associated with him. The flag of his army depicts a rooster. In the war, Shoorapadman was split into two, and was granted a boon by Kartikeyan, to become the peacock, and the rooster.
As Karttikeya is worshipped predominantly in south India, many of his names are of Tamil origin. These include Senthil (the "Red" or formidable one); Arumuga (the six-faceted one); Muruka; Guha; Maal-Marigan (nephew of Vishnu) and many others.
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Differences in Northern and Southern traditions
There seem to be some intriguing differences in the traditions associated with Kartikeya in the North and South of India. The Sanskrit epics and Puranas seem to indicate that he was the eldest son of Shiva, as the tale of Shiva's marriage to Parvati indicates. In the Shiva Purana, he is seen helping Shiva fight the newly born Ganesha, Shiva's other son, when Ganesha stopped Shiva from entering his home in Kailasa.The south has all along maintained that he was the younger of the two. In the north, he is generally seen as a bachelor whereas the southern tradition has him married to two wives.
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