Posted on 01/30/2006 6:37:11 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge
That is fine with me. Even you will confirm that there is a asymmetry in US deployments all over Europe. The presence in Germany is still simply too big.
Schroeder proved that Germany today operates under the assumption that the Cold War is over and there is no true viable security threat. Despite the fact that this ill-perceived assumption is changing again in light of current events, the US has a lack of confidence in Germany. The Cold War was over, so the politician no longer will defend and stand up to take a egg on his face. Hence, Bad Aibling happened. No doubt that a Merkel would have intervened, but what about 5 years from now? .... .....It used to be that the BND had limited access to Bad Aibling and many other facilities and a lot of the collected material was shared.
Bad Aibling? Ecolon is program we are not participating in. Therefore it is was not in our interest to allow such a spypost on our soil. Quid pro quo. Limited access was simply not enough. After the EU found out that it was extensivly used for industrial espionage it was rather a logical step to close it. BTW - we allowed you to build 5 radoms in Griesheim/Darmstadt to do all the spying you need for WOT. Nobody, espechially not America, has a reason to whine. In difference to Japan or the Phillipines, were your troops were obviously really not welcome (remember - the Phillipines kicked the US out of Subic Bay Naval Base and the Clark Air Base), Germany is still a very friendly place for US troops. We even guard your facilities for free while all your troops are in Iraq. What do you want more?
As the economy was slowing down they increased the tax load, increased essentially the ratio of state to private share of the GDP………. Germany was run by a pack of socialist ideologues for 7 years. I’m surprised the economy is as well off as it is – that’s no joke.
Sad but true. Since the world is in a continuous change nothing will be really fixed in Germany. This is my hope. If Merkel will have success (I predict the SPD leaving the coalition sooner than later since they loose their basement of voters in the moment)my country maybe can go through a renaissance. What we need is capitalism and growth. No more VAT-taxes, Oekosteuer and other BS. BTW - if the CDU will take over they will build new reactors.
Schroeder and Fischer were for sure no pragmatics. This is the reason why they lost the elections finally. Although the people and the mainstream were quite content with their foreign policy and their over-all appearance, they didn't tolerate their ideologic view of things. A few days ago I saw a interesting poll about nuclear power (Buhuhaha - in the Spiegel). Under the impression of the Russian-Ukraine gas trouble there are more than 56% of the Germans who are pro nuclear energy (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,395168,00.html). You will know that this was a issue that simply was not placeable among the German public. Since the beginning 80ties more than 80% of the Germans were constantly against it. Now they changed quasi "religious" views within a few days. This is real pragmatism. Since Merkel seems to be no idiot, she will be pragmatic too.
MOST of the world lives in backwards oppressive ‘REGIMES”. We can’t save everyone even if we tried. We would go broke. We can do what we can, and we focus on issues that threaten our or our allies (collective) interest. Libya is tame today because of direct pressure from the US and Great Britain.
I will not dispute the great success of Tony Blair and GWB to get Gaddafi under relative "control". But if we are talking about opressive "REGIMES" nothing really changed for the Libians. Their freedom-fighters still rot in Gaddafis dark dungeons and their kids still have to read in Gaddafis green BS-"Bible". Although the country is in the moment no direct threat to Israel, it remains a highly unstable dictatorship that can turn into a ocean of terror within hours. It would have been the best to kill Gaddafi. Just like Assad, Ahmadinezhad, Kim Jong Il or whoever.
Europe is at GREATER risk from Islamic terror and rouge states than the US. The Atlantic and Pacific still help us a little. We have less Islamists in our nation, we are economically LESS dependent on them, our boarders are easier to seal up (no porous East like you have)……….
It is true that the US try to do something against terror on their soil. BUT....We should not forget that those who did i.e. 9/11 were private persons with no professional background who lacked the terrorist infrastructure that only a state or nation can provide. If the Iranians i.e. want to bother you with WMDs, it will be the easiest way to do for them on your own soil. You can be assured that nobody will have the means to stop them, since you have even more boarders than we Europeans have. In their sight a terror plot will be much more intelligent than to fire i.e. one of their North Korean BS-rockets openly to Israel. If somebody is firing 5 tonnes of VX from a "Stalin's Organ" (Katyusha) into New York you guys first have to find out who it was. If such a plot is planned good it will be difficult to find out and you will not have the possibility to retaliate with good conscience. The worst shots come out of an ambush. Bin Laden was right on this issue. Since 9/11 nobody can be save anymore. Sad but true.
-As to your love of France—
Now it is going to get interesting....
Working with someone 5 times ones own economy, 10 times the defense budget, 3.5 times the population, 35 times the land mass, who is a technological powerhouse and has vast political influence nearly anywhere on this planet posses problems for Germany. You have an alliance where there is a constant “Bevormundung”. But you need to ask yourself if you want to become “dependent” on a colonial power that is a third rate military power and truly does act unilaterally and in pure self interest.
Do not panic. We will work with you in future, even if we have to kick you guys out of Aibling or somewhere else. The reason for it: We are pragmatic. You once said something that is very true: The best thing for Germany is to hop in the "area of conflict" between France and the US. If two are quarreling around, the third one will take the best from each side. Since we do not have to decide immediately, it will be the best thing to do.
France several years ago 1996 or so already offered Germany to put them under the French nuclear umbrella.
Yep! I know. And I an thankful for it, since I think that we Germans can rely more on the French nukes since we and the French are sitting in the same boat. It was a fault not to produce own German nukes in the 60ties. Anyway this is a lost chance. Therefore we have to look for reliable partners. America and Washington is far away and I doubt that you really would enter a dangerous nuclear showdown just because of those *ucking Krauts. I have great faith in America but I am also aware of its limitations. BTW - Chirac pointed out recently when he visited the Force de frappe in the Normandy that the French allies like Germany are still under the nuclear umbrella.
You have the “core” which Chirac even talks about and then the rest of the trash, to which Poland, the Check Rep. and others belong. France sees the security aspect of NATO and the US/German ties as a major hindrance in its power base expansion.
You probably do not know that the "core" was no idea of Chirac, it was an idea of Wolfgang Schaeuble.
It is legitimate if the EU develops into something better. Period.
You are right. The EU isn't just a free trade area. There is a clear trend to a closer networked Europe especially inside "old" Europe. Not so far from now I am quite sure that there is a sort of conferderation between France, Germany, Beligium, Holland and Luxemburg (maybe Spain) where those nations give in their foreign policy and defense into a bigger federal structure. You can be assured that our politicians will fight for every drop of their power. This confederation is only possible if the French will be pragmatic too. To me it is also clear, that it is not possible to countries with a extremely strong national foundation -like Poland i.e.- to loose their souvereign privileges by joining such a European "superstate".
The crux of the matter will be the agenda which the "nations" of this still virtual "superstate" are going to define. I am aware that there is much dynamite in this issue. Will this "superstate" be ruled by morons like Chriac or Schroeder or will the new faces like Merkel and Sarkozy play their game? And - will it be possible to define the relations between the US and old Europe into something new that is going to be fruitful and good?
On the other hand the members of this new conferderation can do many reasonable things like combining their millitary or use their bigger political weight to take influence on certain issues of their interest. The old dictum of "divide and conquer" (your "Bevormundung") will not work anymore for powers from the outside. Maybe we are even able to get rid of some useless administration. Who knows?
One thing is for sure: History will never end.
Sorry, but I think you missed the issue. We were talking about Muhammad cartoons and the coverage over it. I found it interesting that many US newspapers are obviously too chicken-hearted to print the cartoons just like "DER SPIEGEL".
This has nothing to do with Opel, Daimler-Chrysler or the M-class.
On US web sites, TV, in radio (description) and in printed media these pictures were shown. Your oblivious to what happened. A few, such as the NYT's (On par with Der Spiegel) didn't.
But did the German MSM display these pictures? I'd really like to know?
And again, after you spewed your typical "We are victims of the grand Anglo-Saxon conspiracy" what came of it? Who is the one who's packing up (Mercedes) and who was the one smeared in your media and in almost predicable fashion accused of being part of some conspiracy and called a "Locust capitalist"?
But no worries, we do take note. lol
Red6
Where did I spew that?
This is exactly the way the Koran wants you to do it. Describe it with words. You guys are real heroes!
But did the German MSM display these pictures? I'd really like to know?
As I said there were several big newspapers like the Zeit or the FAZ who printed it. I saw TV coverage in the ZDF where they filmed the edition of "Jyllands- Posten" , were the cartoons appeared first.
Yes, there is such a thing as a “radio” in addition to TV, the WWW, and print.
Imagine I say this: A picture of the prophet Mohamed with a bomb on his head made to look like it's part of his turbine.
That was very simple and I’m no radio talk show host. But there are people who make their living talking on the radio. And yes, they have to describe things in words, hard concept for you to grasp, but true.
Red6
Want me to look up your posts about Opel? Not hard, I just search by "poster".
You said in a nutshell: Opel was leaving because it was payback for Iraq. You incinuated that this was US government directed somehow.
Oh please, you know when you posted this. Please show us these posts again, I really don't want to search for it now! lol
Red6
Ignorant people are easy to mislead. First off, the NSA and specifically Echelon has as full members Great Britain (EU member), New Zealand, Australia and Canada. Then there are lower tier members who contribute and gain from the system but do not have full access.
First let me describe the German media “Landschaft”: Heavily state/government influenced, and the privates largely ultra-liberal as Der Spiegel is.
Bad Aibling was a game, a game where Schroeder stood silently watching, saying nothing, knowing better, but feeling empowered that he stuck it to the US. At the ministerial level and bellow, even at the height of the Schroeder games, cooperation between US and German officials was good. Why? Because the US and Germany’s national interests are 100% identical. Sometimes methods to get the result may differ, but on the geo-political level, the US is more closely aligned with Germany than France, believe it or not.
Our collective interests lie in:
1. Regional stability and security.
2. Patent and copyright protection.
3. Free movement of people goods and services (Again –Germany’s economy LIVES from trade)
4. Free and open access to international markets, resources, etc. Germany’s high tech and industry requires the importation of Platinum, Gold, Cesium, oil and other raw materials required for everything from a catalytic converter, microprocessor to X-Ray machine.
France is a “COLONIAL POWER”. Guess who all but runs the Ivory Coast behind the scenes? Do the Italians have free and unimpeded access to the colonial territories of France? No. Only as much as the French give them.
Do you want to see German troops deployed to the Ivory Coast? To Algeria years ago? As you bad mouth the Iraq war, but at least now are slowly beginning to see the larger Islamic threat, realize that the US and Germany share the same interests in the Middle East. Ask yourself if you want to be part of a colonial power fighting in little colonial wars (Which they have a hard time with), or the German engagement in Afghanistan, where even Struck (who has to toe the administrations party line) had to concede that Germany’s security is protected. Let me explain this to you like this – our airport TSA security or your BGS walking around with MP5’s are a “show” and they do a little, but the “real” security is provided in the Hindukusch. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindukusch
What happened at Bad Aibling would never happen today. Why? Because today under a Merkel you DO have a return to a more pragmatic German approach to security matters. Instead of letting the “dogs out” and staying eerily quiet as Schroeder and the whole administration did, Merkel would have intervened and stopped the stupidity. She doesn’t want the tomato in the face either, but will do what is right, vs. Schroeder who literally worked against Germany’s own best security interests (Although you won’t see that).
Germany had limited access to intell for which they didn’t pay. They had connections and were profiting form activities where:
1. The US/GB/NZ/AU/CN pays for.
2. If politically it goes “sauer” the egg is on our face, not the BND or Germans.
Other examples of this? Sure- AQ/other prisoner flights. Do you REALLY believe the German government didn’t know? Do you really think the Germans are somehow coerced or forced into participating? No. The Germans know everything. The US does not operate without the Germans knowledge. It all goes back to “Plausible deniability”. Programs like this are by design intended so that certain persons, organizations etc can’t be proven to be involved. Just like you can’t “prove” Iran is sponsoring all those riots and demonstrations because of the cartoons. Just like you can’t prove that Syrian intell is in part fuelling the riots in Lebanon…… But how does that US prisoner flight get permission to land somewhere? Fuel? Is it a stealth plane as it fly’s through German airspace? You have to live in complete denial of reality to believe the Germans don’t know.
Let me take this a step further for you. The Germans change their Abschieberecht why? The Germans monitor mosques why? Remember the mess with Kaplan? Boy, it would really suck if the Americans just take out the trash huh? Strange how this topic has quickly faded off the political radar screen. Merkel said what she had to for her own political survival, but in all reality, how do you think the US even gets these people? Do you really think it’s the US that catches them? How do you think they end up in US possession?
If it were Schroeder/Fischer/Tritin etc the German government right now would have a “sonderausschuss” blablabla about these prisoner flights. In reality what would be happening is that the topic would be kept alive by these political heads talking about it, and the media reporting about that. That way the issue stays vivid in the mind of the “idiots” Politically you keep beating it like Abu Gahrib, like WMD. Instead the topic just fell away. Hmmmmm, very interesting isn’t it? Surely not for you though.
I know you have this new found German pride, which is supra-nationalist though, but let me make this clear to you, since you don’t understand it. The US is the leading nation in IT, bio-med, radar, missile, stealth, ABM, laser, military nuclear power, nuclear bomb and and and technology. I know you think you have a lot of super top secret technology to steal, but your flattering yourself a bit much.
Example –
Interceptor missiles/Patriot/THAADS/Arrow and the French who are way behind and trying to develop a system of their own.
The German French AMSAR radar which is a 1000 module AESA on par with what we are exporting to UAE today, a radar that will be operational around 2008 at the earliest, and we already had OPERATIONAL in some F15s by 2003, the F18 in 2005 the F22 in 2005.
What about bomb technology? Yep, we are in the lead.
Stealth? Again, we are in the lead.
Seeker, ECM/ECCM technology? And again, we are in the lead.
What about turbine engines? You take a guess at it.
You try to turn the arguments and make the US guilty for things you can’t prove because in your mind it sure would be nice if it were so. It fits into your world view. That’s why you read “Der Spiegel”. Fact is, it’s a well known fact that the French after the Russians and Chinese are the next biggest intel collectors on us. Why? Not because they see us as a threat, but because they lack the economic means, the technological base and the intel on threat weapons (i.e. signatures etc) to develop weapons as we do. If you can’t build it yourself, steal it from us. That’s how it works. It’s no coincidence that some French planes deviate from the yellow line and take pictures of US towed decoys or that sniffers try to collect how we are jamming (ECM). Organizations like the NASIC/NSA etc collect an enormous amount of intel. We have the real data since we are lit up by Iran, Syria, Iraq (Past), Libya, China, N. Korea etc. We know what the waveforms, modulation etc is. Half of building an ECM system is knowing the threat and we do, France would like to.
Even in the civilian sector, fact is firms like Intel, AMD, Motorola, TI operate without any real competition anymore. How many German chip producers are there? Would it be the US, the worlds leader in bio-med –technology that steals what from the Germans? Snap out of your dream. It’s the US that is the most spied on nation in the world and has in realm of technology the most to loose.
Fact: The US spends 2.8% of GDP on R&D, Germany about 2.5% BUT…. The German economy is about 1/5 the size. If you add it up in total dollars (Civilian now), the US spends annually about 5.6 TIMES that of Germany on R&D.
Again, one of the main problems the Germans have when dealing with the US is the US’s dominance in technology, defense spending, politics etc. If the EF were a joint US/German project the US would have dominated it. It is no different than the relationship between Germany and Austria. Austria is to Germany like Germany is to the US. Identical geo-political interests, economically and in security matters tied together. One side is economically, politically, militarily so much larger than the other that when working together the Germans tend to dominate the Austrians, just like the US tends to over ride, set the pace, or dominate near anything that is US/German.
Example: MEADS. Is it a conspiracy that this is an over 55% US project and the rest is divided between the Italians and Germans? Who really has the intell, the technology, and the money? Who will ultimately shape this project? Is it a conspiracy against the Germans? No. But did Austria have a lot of say in the Eurofighter project? They bought a few! Ultimately the US is the big boy behind the project will have an overwhelming influence upon it. It’s not complicated to understand. Of course you could have gone with the French who are building a similar system! You could have. But then you have more risk of failure, higher cost, later timeline and most likely even a lesser capable system (Of course this is arrogance in your mind). The simple fact is, that with France you have a bit more say, your more “equal” with each other – however, they don’t have our capabilities in technology, industrial base, resources, intell….. even in production cost (because especially in defense we buy in much greater volume and our production costs are lower than France or Germany) we can pump things out at a pace and cost that the French simply can’t even dream of doing.
Bad Aibling and the US today have a lot of similarities. In the US the NSA and Bush administration is under pressure politically because of the eavesdropping that took place and is taking place. The difference is that in the US, the president and other political figures defended the activities, diffused uncertainties that people have. Explain “why” and a little bit “how”, thereby creating some understanding as to why this is necessary.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010400973.html
So, today in the US people like Kerry, Kennedy, etc rip their mouth open about this program. It’s politics at its finest. Do you think this program benefits security? Sure. But if your some politician how do you “make” this into an issue? You have to create the idea that the government is spying on you. So, people like Carter (Still heavily supporting his democratic party) run around and make accusations like this Carter is where he said Mrs. King was spied on as well in the 60s, or Clinton who also at other events has taken jabs at it.
Do you really think the NSA builds multi-million dollar super computers, has it’s own infrastructure solutions department responsible for building dedicated systems for code cracking so they can spy on Loretta King. Do you think that the NSA may have a bit of a hard time finding a needle in a hay stack? In multiple languages, encrypted and hidden within some JPG file may lurk a message of some bad guy. Do you realize that near all your encryption you have access to require near zero special hardware to crack? PGP? No problem.
http://www.nsa.gov/
The NSA is not concerned about you. They are not concerned about me. They are a national asset that operates at echelons above reality.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=9962 (135 Billion email messages per day globally) That’s just email. Now realize – The CIA is HUMAN intelligence, the National Imagry and Mapping Agency is the Imagry inteeligence and the NSA is at national level our Signal intelligence which also covers Cell phone, Ham radio, Morse code (Still used believe it or not)…….. In the US ALONE we have 170 million cell phones!......... How is all this in reality monitored? Big computers! How do you break encryption? Big computers? How do you find the bad guy with intelligent programs that can identify hidden messages buried in a MPEG file? Really huge computers.
Don’t be insulted when I say that you are literally insignificant to them. Although, what a political player as Kennedy will do is to try to stir up the public even here in the US to make them believe “The NSA is spying on innocent Americans”. Make them believe the NSA is being used for mischievous things. Use words like “Watergate” a lot. In Germany this manifested itself in “The NSA is spying on us, they are stealing all those big secrets we have!” lol Deny it all you want, but in a way it’s comical to see the self importance and ignorance of the German “Volk”. In all reality most people give this little thought and are easily misguided since these programs are covert (Not really clandestine – big difference) and the technical capabilities are really highly secret and well protected. Example: You can find nearly every spy satellite we have on the web. But most of the capabilities people talk about are pure speculation. Even in the US people are easily misguided since they know little about these programs and hence the NYT’s has a great impact on “PERCEPTION”. However, in the US the government has a vested interest in these programs, as do the governments of Great Britain, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and yes even Germany the Netherlands, Belgium, Poland etc.
The NSA is tied into the DoD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_B._Alexander
The links required to effectively conduct industrial espionage do not even exist. An organization has to have liaisons or some connections to make this work, and the NSA does not have this. Think about the Osama Bin Laden. Easy to get someone like him huh? Think about Fiber Optic Lines buried in Iraq and part of the Iraqi Air Defense (That’s SIGNAL INTELLIGENCE still). What about Iran? Think about Columbia, Afghanistan, N. Korea, China, Liberia, Sinai, Thailand, East Timor, Liberia, Haiti….. And you think that the most important thing the NSA has to do is to spy on Mercedes or something? They really want to know who you’re screwing! Boy, that’s of national interest. At the ministerial levels the Germans know better, cooperation is good and you don’t want to jeopardize a good working relationship for a petty economic gain. The Germans know everything that US intell does, EVERYTHING. The US would not act in a way that is contrary to what the Germans want. Mutual interests drive issues like the NSA’s echelon, or our prisoner flights.
History lesson for you, my “Spiegel” expert. The night the lights in Serbia went out. Who do you think did that on the opening hour of the air campaign? From where do you think it was orchestrated? Was the Balkans campaign not in Germany’s interest?
Why Germany? In the Cold War we built massive infrastructure in Germany. Literally an infrastructure large enough to support 300,000 JUST in the DoD. The defense of Europe was built around the defense of Germany. As in MOST wars on global scale, like we are in today, you have a central nation which is the KEY to a region. When Vietnam fell, the whole region fell (i.e. Laos, Burma and Cambodia followed). Had Germany fallen, all of Western Europe would have followed suite. If Iraq is a succeeds, Iran/Syria and AQ/Hamas etc are in deep shit! We have phones, buildings, and telecommunications via satellite etc all in place. As the Cold War closed it only made sense to recapitalize on the pre-existing infrastructure to save costs. Germany became the focal point for all US activities from department of agriculture (Yes, they too are there) to FAA which had a major field office at Rhein Main, to State Department to DoD or NSA/CIA or even the FBI. Germany was the HUB of US activity in Europe. Just like you have German Air Force in the US ( http://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/AFB-Holloman/AFB-Holloman.html ), a German Embassy in DC, many little consulates all over, and Army and Air Force exchange officers/Liaisons, etc scattered all over the US from Fort Benning to Arizona, the US concentrated most of their activities in one area because it was the logical thing to do after 1989. Some threats are still there, we still have common interests, Germany “was” a pragmatic ally that could be counted on and and and. The US put not all, but most its eggs in one basket; Germany.
Today we still work together, we still have mutual interests in nearly every aspect. However, the US simply does not have full confidence in the German government anymore. Germany today is viewed as a major strategic partner but as politically “Labil”. That’s why the US is “Managing risk” and spreading out. Ultimately, you again see yourself as a victim, and try to turn the table as if it’s us that is losing here, but there are always people out there who want our money. The loser here is not the US. The loser here is Germany which will loose money, jobs, intell links, etc. In the end all the NSA did was to relocate to Great Britain. Freidberg will go to Romania. Even Spandalem will shut down. The people who benefit are Great Britain, Italy, Romania, Poland and Bulgaria. All of them will directly inherit operations which formerly were conducted in Germany. Do you think that as we negotiate our presence there that they are “not aware” of what we are doing? No. At the national level they know all our activities in everyone of these countries. Just like the Germans do.
Why did this move really come? Because of the so called pragmatic German politics under Schroeder/Fischer and Co.
Bad mouth the US and say we are “destabilizing” the world and starting a new arms race with our ABM system. BUT….. at the same time buy Patriot PAC3 (Specifically designed for ABM threats) and join into the MEADS program (Specifically designed for ABM threats).
Bad Aibling – get intell from there, know all along who what where and why but stay completely silent and not back up the program in any way when some upcoming “Provinz” politician wants to get his name in the paper.
Iraq – Actively work against a growing Middle East threat picture that even threatens Germany.
These are not the only instances. Frankly, most of those in positions of authority in Germany who were not directly appointed and associated with the administration of Schroeder/Fischer didn’t share the same view anyway.
There were people who were upset when the Germans began operating and set up a permanent base in the US. Think if some “provincial” politician beats some NAZI or bad German drum beat and the US government stands by saying nothing.
Just as the Germans at Fort Bliss who are trained in High/Med Air defense, those in Rucker training to be Heeresflieger, most your KSK who receive some sort of training in the US and those who fill the role of CCT are near completely US trained, in AZ you train your fighter pilots and do low level supersonic flight (breaking windows etc)……. We could reciprocate the ignorance you have. Ever notice that you seldom here of issues in the US? When was the last major US article written about some bad German or the spying Germans, or whatever? Surely it must be because you’re all so good! Ever notice that politically the German presence is nearly a non-issue? Why? Because you are the typical German with his new found pride, some nationalist thought (Although it’s now Supra-nationalist) and a hyper-sensitive sense of sovereignty. You see, when Germans rotate through JRTC (And they do at times) in LA it never becomes an issue. But in Germany nearly anything and everything becomes a sovereignty issue to the German like you (Not all, but those like you).
---
End notes – we shut down the bases in the Philippines after they were destroyed by this thing called a VOLCANO! In 2003 we actually went back into the Philippines on request of the Philippine government.
Our relationship with Japan is very good. I’ve been there as well. In fact Japan asked us to permanently base a nuclear carrier out of Japan, is bought into the US missile defense system now, and and and. Japan even has troops in Iraq. But your “Der Spiegel” won’t talk about that much. All you want to know is that it’s “trash nations” that support the US there.
While the wheels are already in motion and some unfortunate decisions had to be made as a consequence, the political knife cutting between the US and Germany has ended. Under a Merkel Germany will walk a more pragmatic course. Both Bush and Merkel will focus on the future and not harp on the past.
Discussion with you is useless. You refuse to go back and correct statements that are proven as false later. You quote sources such as “Der Spiegel”. Your position is emotionally based but you try to present it as logical and rational. All I will do is talk in circles with someone like you. You’ll just bring up some new “Der Spiegel” article to substantiate what you “believe” to be true already. Thanks for this discussion, but I don’t like wasting my time.
Red6
On another note-
In long lasting Fortuyn, Van Gogh, London, France riots, Denmark, Madrid tradition, this is not something that politically some want to add to the fire, not something which the liberal in Germany (We have them too, so no offense) wants to see, but that prison break in Yemen let some really bad dudes out- They tunneled themselves out. Guess where? Into a mosque! lol
One of the guys was involved in the USS Cole bombing, another guy was involved with the French tanker attack.
http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=837
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/06/yemen.ship/
Für eine lange Zeit versuchte man regelrecht mit aller macht politisch dies als ein erfundenes Problem vom Bush hinzustellen. Man erwähnte politisch so gut wie NIE all die Angriffe die gegen einem waren oder verhindert wurden. Man musste alles runter spielen dank Schroeder/Fischer’s Kurs den würde man erwähnen das es mehrere Attentat versuche gab in Deutschland die verhindert wurden usw würde man mehr oder weniger dem Bush politisch zu spielen.
Noch etwas Futter zu bedenken was auch nicht oft in den Medien berichtet wird. Viele der GITO Inhaftierten wurden schon frei gelassen. Diese Woche kommen noch mehr frei. Das interesannte ist das einige die sich dort heute befinden waren schon einmal da und wurden in Afghanistan wieder eingefangen nachdem sie freigelassen wuerden!
The new future-
What many don't really understand is that the massive Warsaw Pact is gone, but nations like Russia have not really changed much. Russia/China will be against any action in Iran, as in Iraq, as in Serbia, as in Afghanistan….. The Warsaw Pact is gone and 30,000 tanks no longer sit in the East. They work against us where-ever and when-ever possible. Any weakness on our behalf is seen as advantageous to them. As in Vietnam where they backed the North and Afghanistan where we backed their enemy, we still work against each other. We just don’t threaten each other with complete gobal annihilation anymore.
Russia as China is part of a “new form” of communism. What you have is a HYBRID system where the old former Duma members today just so happen to be the “CEO” of every vital firm and infrastructure. They want investment from the West, they want trade, they want an efficient powerful free-market behind their economy, but the “Old Regime” is still in power. You have near zero transparency into these economies, nor do they want any. You have mysterious multi-billion dollar firm (Which no one ever heard of!) buy out major energy firms in Russia and and and.
PS- besides the SA-15 that has been sold to Iran in Dec 05, they also just sold Iran newer radars for acquisition, and Syria just got deliveries of the SA-18 in 2004/2005 (Extensively countermeasure hardened). The US DoD is eerily quiet about some of the Apaches shot down of late. Most successful engagements had been with stupid RPG or simple mass volume of small arms as during the war. The countermeasures on the AH-64 are extensive and you’re more likely to shot it down with a simple stupid rocket than a SA-7, but a SA-18 is a different story. I would not be surprised……..
Did you hear Putin’s comments today on Hamas? lol It’s a global chess game, only in this game the pawns are real humans.
Red6
http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200602/eb82f6ec-3a87-4def-98e8-fbb6295169bc.htm
Want more links? lol
You will continue to downplay, see no threat, pretend all is OK, and more importantly appease. But in the end, NONE of this will save you when you face someone who:
1. Is unwilling to compromise
2. Is bent on your destruction
- Since 2001 we have been attacked ZERO times in the US. Europe has been attacked just SINCE THEN (There were attacks for years before this) ON EU soil: In London, Madrid, Van Gogh, Mr Fortuyn......... But you're right, it's an American problem and Europe is not in the Islamists sights.
I gave logical arguments for why Europe is at greater risk even than the US. Your response? So now I just gave you real world events in Europe since 2001. Your response?
Red6
Crap -
I searched Google under various search strings (nothing found).
Basically, the planes we have there were flown there via Greenland - Iceland - Ireland - Germany. Pretty cool huh?
Neues Thema-
Präsident Bush’s neuer Helicopter ist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_EH101 ) - made in Italy. Airbus ist wirklich der perfekte Beispiel wieso man zum teil Handels Konflikte hat. Die US Regierung hat einen sehr kleinen Anteil ca. 17% der gesamten Wirtschaft. Der Staat hat da wenig zu sagen. Airbus wurde wie wild von Pan Am (entzwichen Konkurs), United, etc gekauft aber Boeing, McDonald Douglas, Lockheed usw wurden systematisch aus dem Markt gehalten wenn Airbus ein vergleichbares Produkt auf dem Markt brachte innerhalb denen Laender die Teil des Airbus Konsortium waen oder sind und Staatliche Fluggesellschaften hatten oder haben. Die privaten Airlines kauften immer noch Boeing oder Airbus oder Lockheed oder Saab usw. Jedoch bei den Staatlichen Airlines war dies anders. Zur gleichenzeit wurde Airbus massiv per Subventionen gestützt. Normal haette Airbus NIE das Kapital gehabt um so viele diverse Produkte in solch kleiner Zeitspanne zu entwickeln. Man konnete dies tun aus dem selben Grund wieso es bald schon den A350 geben wird. Die Konsortium beteiligten Staaten subventionieren fast die gesamten entwickelungs Kosten. Airbus hatt noch nicht einmal die Kosten für die Entwicklung für den A380 zurueck, müsste noch ca 100 A380 verkaufen um nur am “Break even” Punkt zu kommen jedoch entwickelt heute schon mit vollem Tempo den A350! Wieso? Was die anderen beitragen weiß ich nicht, aber veröffentlicht wurde der Beitrag der Briten und der lag bei $250,000,000.
Lese einmal die Geschichte von der Comet. Lese die der DC-10. Beide Maschinen waren verantwortlich das deren Hersteller Konkurs ging. Technische Mängel, auch wenn nur “Perceived/Eingebildet” sind eine Katastrophe für deren Hersteller. Jedoch wen Airbus eine Maschine (Wann man noch neu und klein war) voller “VIP’s” in einem Wald rein rennt ist es kein Problem für Airbus. Nein, auch nach Probleme mit den Steuerungs Systeme und Rumpf – kein Problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC10
Beide waren große Flugzeug Hersteller, beide gingen Konkurs wegen einige technische Mängel. Dann kommt dies:
http://www.airdisaster.com/download/af320.shtml
Und am naechtsen Jahr verkauft man mehr trotzdem. Auch wenn Airbus Kacke mit Flügel bauen würde, es wird gekauft.
Red6
You do that and you clean it up! (or whatever you said. Enlighten us who know no German and will not learn it). Danke!
Me neither. Although I was not that impolite to say it that open. Dream on in your virtual reality.
In a nutshell:
You need money to develop new planes. Airbus developed planes at a pace and tempo that is not possible had they not gotten massive subsidies. In fact, today they still have not recouped the cost for the A380 and need to sell another 100 of them just to “break even”, yet Airbus has the resources to develop a new plane to compete against the Boeing 787. With an accelerated time line this A350 will be developed thanks to massive financial injections of the consortium states. While the total subsidies are not publicly advertised (They would rather not talk about that), at least Great Britain has admitted to pumping about 250,000,000 (USD equivolent) into the development of this new plane.
The links I posted were in reference to-
DeHavilland lost their ass after the Comet and it’s fuselage failures. They went from a major player to a nobody.
The Douglas Corp. in reality went down - and was bought up because of the early problems with the DC-10 from which they never really recovered.
Airbus years ago when they were still small, took a plane full of VIPs, airline execs etc and flew it right into a forest, killing all on board. Next year Airbus sold more planes. Airbus has had major issues that involved the tail structure and controls of their planes, yet nothing slows their sales especially to the European state run airlines.
--
Coincidentally Airbus (A state run consortium) did really well with the many Airlines in Europe (Which are also state run). Once Airbus built any plane that filled a certain market niche, the state run airlines bought it and Boeing was cut out. They key word here is “comparable”. Some will say that these state run airlines bought 747s etc even after Airbus was around, but that was because Airbus built nothing equivalent.
Airbus by early 2005 had over 13 BILLION Euro in pure subsidies. That doesn’t count the hangers, training of technicians etc that is also paid for. The typical defense for Airbus is to make absurd statements that Boeing gets subsidies too, and then they will state that a “defense contract” equals a subsidy. Basically, in defense of the subsidies they will make erroneous counter accusations. The best defense is a good offense, so make some counter claim, regardless of its validity.
While not a major issue now - The Bush administration has other pressing issues and various other reasons have taken this issue off the political radar screen of the current administration, this issue WILL come back again. Despite making a good comeback Boeing can not compete with the financial backing of Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Boeing simply can't run to sugar-daddy and ask for more money as Airbus recently LITERALLY did. You have a private firm competing with a consortium that has the financial backing of it's parent states who also practiced protectionism. Despite the 787 being a hit and the A380 a flop, Airbus will overpower Boeing because of protectionism (hard to prove but obvious to the observer) and massive subsidies.
Red6
Yea,
What you need to do is to go to Feldberg (Hessen).
http://www.qslnet.de/member/dg3hda/Hessenbilder/Hessentour.html
Look! Look! It’s an ANTENNA! OMG- You need to get a “Bürgerinitiative” together to stop this. Start a rally against this Hegemony, Imperialist oil hungry USA. They must be “Spying” on you, you personally, because “YOU” matter so much.
Never mind it belongs to the state department. It’s an antenna – therefore the US is spying on you.
Of course you should organize this protest rally right after you protest Darmstadt.
The exact “OPINIONS” presented by you, your ATTITUDE is leading reason why the US has been led to believe that Germany is not a completely trustworthy nation to be in. Despite identical geo-political interests, despite the German government knowing EVERYTHING we do, despite the Germans profiting economically and in security from US activities in Germany, despite similar cultures - your inferiority complex, this new national pride and HYPER sensitive sovereignty feelings is making Germany into a nation that behaves in an irrational manner.
Maybe because you lost the war, had the US protect you for 50 years, are smaller economically, politically, militarily you feel compelled to act this way because we are after all animals of habit and the environment shapes us. But contrary to what you may think – your views are counterproductive even for Germany. When 35 Mayors of German cities travel to the US (And that is not something Schroeder wanted) to plea the case for why the US should not withdraw certain installations. When your BND will lose, your MAD will lose, your BVS will lose, your BW will lose links they had with the US, etc it’s not a step up or and improvement.
It has become a “lose-lose” situation and it was defined by an administration that did not do the right thing and played cheap politics to get reelected in 2002. An administration which sold off a long term relationship for a quick political fix. An administration guided by deep rooted ideological thoughts that lacked any empirical, logical, or historical basis for believing. The US has additional incurred costs for relocating but the true loss is to the Germans. They ultimately are more affected than us in all aspects.
No one, not one single person gained from the politics of Schroeder except for Schroeder. Did it help the unity of the EU? Did it empower / legitimize the UN? Did it make NATO more trustworthy? Did it help fight the threat with radical Islam, Arab banana republics? Did it help the oppressed people in Iraq? Did it help the US/German cooperation? Did he help the crisis with Iran?
Even on his way out the door this “fool” tried to take cheap shots and said “military options are off the table – bla bla bla, in regards to Iran!
The era Schroeder is over, thank God. The damage he did will live on.
You can try to distort reality and think you’re kicking us out (Yea, yea we actually want you to leave!), but in reality that’s not the case. You can try to rationalize Germany back stabbing the US in regards Iraq by saying the war is all about oil, reality is not that. You can try to make up some grand spy theories and how GM is leaving Germany etc. But…. That’s not how it all unfolded. You can say that Europe is not threatened by Islamic terror, but the bombs ripping people apart don’t support your theory. I don’t think I’m the one living in a dream world. Make yourself believe that “you threw us out”, but in reality our departure is a “lack of confidence vote” for you by us. We’re not being thrown out, we’re choosing to leave and in reality it’s a slap in the face for you. But since you’re a typical nihilistic hedonist (Which German society has become unfortunately), just believe what makes you “feel good” not what is.
Red6
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4700414.stm
So the EU will meet in a few months to discuss self-censorship. Sweden does what? Most the papers don't even run the cartoons, but sure, you're right. It's the same in the US.
Let me explain this to you again: You guys only have balls against the US, since we won’t run into a disco wearing a suicide vest. You’re have a big mouth with us, but cower in the face of an Islamist. Go pay some ransom or appease some al-Kadafi then have a protest rally in front of a US installation – Jesus you’re pathetic.
Red6
Uh well - I thought that I am a waste of time and now you wasting long rogations about missing German balls on me.
You are a strange and funny bird. Interesting from the psychological point of view. It doesn't need Sigmund Freud to diagnose your deeply disturbed love-hate towards my country. Probably the outcome of often repeated rejections. Just like a pimply teenager that never gets the girl he is dreaming of. You seem to be trapped in a vicious circle of your own virtual world far from any kind of reality. You are well informed. The details you are inquesting refer to somebody that is intelligent. No doubt about that. The thing is that you are obviously fading out that the reality is not just black and white. It has many colours.
If you take this ridicolous cartoon thing as an example. There are many Europeans that are so chicken-hearted that they start pi**ing into their trousers even if they see an old Turkish woman with a headscarf. On the other hand you have outstanding newsmen and cabaret artists on the old continent who will defend their right to free speech with every drop of blood they have. It doesn't matter if they are right or left wing. They will fight for their cause. It is just the same like in your own -great- country. Where you find light you also going to find darkness.
Being free means to be free to do whatever you like. To be free means to respect always the freedom of those who think different. Thank God your gouvernment seem have much more humor than you have (I saw this ridicolous whining from you about the coming Karneal in Koeln here in FR - you should feel a bit sheepish about it). They understood that freedom is to laugh about John Kerry.
You are drunk from your exceptional nationalism. Most Germans seem to have a cooler and much more professional view on those things. We are the ones to define Realpolitik. Not you. We decide if we go to Iraq, to Iran or anywhere else. There is no doubt, that the US are the most powerful county on this planet in the moment. But... ...there is also no doubt that your possibilities are very limited. Do you remember this camel driver that killed 3000 of your compatriots? He ist still alive and is giving interviews via tapes on Al Jazzera. This is for sure no outstanding demonstration of power and potentials.
I do not say that we Europeans make anything better. Personally I regret the stance of Schroeder and his horde of idiots. I would have appreciated it if my country would have taken a bigger burden in helping Iraq but I have to respect the free will of the majority of my German compatriots. Period.
BTW - Just a funny mind game - What do you think would have happened if Schroeder really refused the authorization to use our airspace for operations associated with the war in Iraq. What would have been the outcome if the Germans would have reacted simular than the Turks? A 3rd world war? Nuclear warheads on Berlin? The USS New Jersey firing rounds on Hamburg? German armour in Ramstein (there we could find out which tank is really better - your Abrams or our Leopard)? French and German wolfpacks against American tankers? US cruise missles against Paris? Tornados and Mirages against your ships in the North Sea? A showdown in the Fulda Gap?
BS.
I will tell you what would have happend: NOTHING.
Therefore: We are the ones to decide what is going to happen on our soil. Not you or anybody else. The US are a old and reliable partner. Therefore you could hold on to your bases (in difference to Russia i.e.) after the end of the cold war.
P.S.
I will continue you answer your posts. But only if they are not stuffed with a orgy of hate. I like to argue with arguments but I am not a therapy to your inferior complex.
Lieber Red6,
we can see that the US government serves its companies with special benefits in all the nice WTO decisions against the US government. Yesterday, the EU won another case.
Airbus and Boeing get massive support from their governments, and I see nothing wrong in it, at least we have two good competitors for air vehicles.
You really impressed me by saying the Cessnas are flown the distance between the US and Europe. Cannot really imagine that, I thought these planes were brought by ship.
Mike
Agreed, comrade. :-) I almost have to apologize for my short comments.
I'm still waiting for GM to go broke! Remember that one from you? Don’t worry, you won’t feel stupid since the rest of your compatriots won’t ask themselves this: “If I’m CONSTANTLY proven wrong after the fact, am I maybe reading the wrong paper?”
Your lackluster defense of a debasing administration went well noted by many here. Despite your near comedic defense of this administration since you as a German feel compelled to defend all that is German (Unser Teutonicher Ritter) became boring as soon as I realized that your entire world is shaped by a single magazine that writes intentionally at a 8th grade reading comprehension and sells a lot of papers because of its glossy color pictures which are often out of context (Archived photos that they think would look good to make their point, i.e. show Bush with a huge cross behind him or pick a snapshot while he’s talking and looks like an idiot)- "Der Spiegel"
As to your post this time –
http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/:Extra-CIA-Macht-Amerikas/550908.html?eid=551508&&nv=ex_tt (Noch so ein Klatch blatt)
Suddenly the story just faded away….. Hmmmmmmm - Politically no one really wants to touch it, Hmmmmmmmm. Merkel said what she had to, but no more and the story is fading from the political radar, fading from all public “political” discourse.
The difference is this – Merkel does what she will have to politically survive. However, where and when necessary she will take a stand and will take the heat if need be. She in the end will do the right thing. Schroeder would have “exploited” this situation. I can’t read another persons mind, but past actions are a good indicator of future behavior, and Schroeder would have immediately dropped this political “hot-potato”. Schroeder was surly playing along since this has been going on for YEARS. But no doubt that had the issue come up during the elections he would have pulled the plug in a second!
Is that the best course of action for Germany’s security?
Another thread that pertains to this: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1576207/posts?page=3#3
-Let me quote you - “BTW - Just a funny mind game - What do you think would have happened if Schroeder really refused the authorization to use our airspace for operations associated with the war in Iraq. What would have been the outcome if the Germans would have reacted simular than the Turks? A 3rd world war? Nuclear warheads on Berlin? The USS New Jersey firing rounds on Hamburg? German armour in Ramstein (there we could find out which tank is really better - your Abrams or our Leopard)? French and German wolfpacks against American tankers? US cruise missles against Paris? Tornados and Mirages against your ships in the North Sea? A showdown in the Fulda Gap?” - Kitsch
This is complete non-sense. Even the French let us use their air-space. That’s the route I flew to Iraq. Do you think the French want to “really” be on our bad side? If we really wanted to, do you think maybe we could make their life in French Guinea, Ivory Coast etc into hell? Sure we could. It wouldn’t even be hard. We can work together or we can work against one another. Geopolitically our national strategic interests are identical. People loose their “perspective” by worrying about the small stuff and forget the big issues. How much did Schroeder focus on the “real” Islamic threat? He nearly presented the situation at hand as a “made up” problem. What about Iran? Real or fake problem? The Balkan problem in the late 90s, real or fake?
You can’t say you’re “allies” and then play against us and refuse help when it’s needed. You can’t call yourself “multilateral” and accuse the US of being unilateral all awhile you sabotage NATO. You can’t ask for help from NATO and say how great it is we have an alliance and 7 years later refuse help when we are attacked on the pretence that you’re a sovereign nation and have the right to do nothing. -That’s just crap. Then you try to defend this with arguments like “Kein Blut fuer Oel”. -That’s just more crap.
Had Germany not granted the US over-flight rights, the logistical cost would have been higher. Bases in Italy, Spain and Great Britain would have carried the load, but it would have been more difficult. Even had all Europe said no (Not likely – only for arguments sake) we still would have pulled it off since we also have a Pacific option – going the other way around the Earth. We have bases in S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand Diego Garcia………. The financial cost, the associated risks to aircrews flying and possible delays in ramp up time would all have been likely. Is that the road you want to go down? What should we do if we could help Germans in Africa (Whom we evacuated) years ago? What about in Latin and South America where we use our influence and connections to help Germans who are taken hostage (As has been the case)? The US/German cooperation in security and its relationship goes far beyond what you think. What would happen had the Germans been so foolish is that this relationship gets damaged. As it was, the US no longer “trusts” Germany since even though you currently have a “Realpolitik” administration who knows about 5 years from now. We’re looking strategic and long term. If possible, the US will do what it can in Iraq today to help those Germans that are taken hostage; and believe me when I say that we carry more weight, have more intell, have more firepower, more links and political weight there today than anyone else. Even the few Germans that are there ride on our coat train. Nothing would have happened? I don’t think you quiet understand how things work. Germany went as far as it could without really doing serious damage. No over flight rights would have been a “redefinition” of our relations to one where the US won’t bother helping when we could.
With freedom comes personal responsibility. With a sovereign state comes responsibility as well. There are consequences to the decisions made. Germany in all reality will be the one that suffers the greatest from the post Iraq fall out politically, economically and in security matters. From your perspective it’s about German sovereignty and your “Stolz” was hurt. However, it was Americans who were bleeding in Iraq (Which serves a “collective” interest) while people like you were ripping their pie holes open. In the end, we will continue to work together but the Americans will manage risk by spreading their footprint around in Europe to those states they see as being long term trust worthy allies. Germany will REMAIN in this mix, but we will no longer have all eggs in one basket, a situation that was very advantageous for all involved until 2002-2003.
How does an alliance work? Tony Blair is a “liberal”. I would not vote for him. Like Schmidt he presents a more socialist economic view of things. However, like Schmidt he drew the obvious conclusion that there is a real world threat in the Middle East. He saw the US was attacked and when called upon after 9-11 Great Britain stood by the US’s side, unlike Germany which after THREE MONTHS already redefined what “Uneingeschrenkte Solidaritaet” is. You lasted a whopping THREE MONTHS until your government reduced your commitment to some peacekeeping and a radio channel in Afghanistan. As Schmidt with the stationing of the nuclear weapons, Blair did the right thing, while Germany took a hike and played the “Kein Blut fuer Oel” game.
People like you are easy to understand. You see Germany as being someone again with statements like “Der Deutsche Weg” (Schroeder 2003). With the French you would be a power block (At least that’s how you see it). The French NATO undermining efforts you supported in 2003 since it too served your end at that time (Schroeder got political backing from the French to be against the war). Daddy made you mad so you ran to mommy. The French have their own agenda in acting the way they did; blocking NATO intervention……… (Read other post – link provided above for more on that) For the French it’s about power base expansion within Europe, for Schroeder a political game.
Now, let me focus your attention to reality. Germany bought Patriot PAC3, Interceptor missiles will be emplaced in Poland and Great Britain. In the end NATO will continue to be the security blanket under which Germany stands. The only difference is that from the US perspective Germany is no longer a 100% trustworthy ally. As with Iraq, Bad Aibling and other cases, Germany may play games. Even though now there is Merkel; what about 5 years from now?
The greatest threat to Germany, the US, the WEST is two fold:
1. Theater ballistic Missiles (Which every banana republic out there wants to have). But even there Schroeder played the anti-American card in 2000. “Oh the Americans are destabilizing the world with their SDI!” Remember that? Sure, Your Spiegel likes to go back and fix themselves just as often as you do. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/meads/ and http://www.msl.army.mil/Fact_Sheets/PAC3.pdf While Schroeder was playing the "Hegomoniale Weltmacht, destabilizierung, Rustungswettrennen bla bla bla" in the media, Germany was buying PAC3 and joined the MEADS program. DAS IST SERIOES!
The German BW will restructure itself. The whole ADA concept is antiquated. Like us, Aid Defense will transition more to a TBM defense force. The arguments against Iran are no different than with Iraq. Fact is, they were right with Iraq! But would it fit into “Der Spiegel” readers world view to remind themselves that long range missiles slammed into Kuwait that FAR exceeded the maximum range set by the UN on Iraq? Of course not. Why do you think all these little banana republics out there are developing long range missiles? To deliver a 2000 pound conventional warhead? Go through all that trouble, those costs with such few missiles available to launch an inaccurate missile with a 2000 pound warhead? No! Libya (past tense), Syria, Iran, Iraq (Past tense), N. Korea are developing these missile in parallel with WMD programs. How accurate does a nuclear warhead have to be when fired on Rome? You laugh at N. Korea and their missiles; in typical German fashion you downplay the threat. How accurate does a N. Korean nuclear missile need to be?
2. Terrorism. Which is a battle that is immense and involves Libya (Out of the fight), Saudi Arabia (The government is on our side but many Wahhabists - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabbi - within there are not), Iraq, Yemen, Oman, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Republic of Georgia, Indonesia, Jordan, Philippines and a few others are all in this game. Each one is a special case. As Saudi Arabia where the government is more pro west, supports us and fights AQ and other terrorist groups, but within the society you have some radical elements. The King of Jordan is VERY pro-West, but AQ most wanted man in Iraq is Jordanian………. Chechens are part of the larger picture as well. Places like Sudan are even part of the much larger picture. In Sudan you have a “genocide” against Christians that is being sponsored by Arab and Muslim states that back the Tin Pot regime in the North……. As I said before – This will take years! We are still in the beginning of this larger campaign which ultimately has to result in the shift of a whole other cultures paradigm. The clash of civilizations is already a reality. Some just choose to pretend it’s not there.
The “schurkenstaat” has two primary ways to fight. Terrorism shapes the battlefield and is sponsored, as many do. But the Missile and WMD are regarded as the failsafe deterrent from attack or military action against oneself. Once Iran has the capability to launch a nuke they will let everyone know. They will want you to know, as was the case with N. Korea. It’s their “Ace in the hole”. Any future military, economic or political action has to now be done within context of a nation that while backward, corrupt, and basically no more than a dictatorship and “mob rule” on its streets has a nuke and a delivery vehicle. From Libya to N. Korea, the missile and WMD is regarded as deterrent.
The answer on how to deal with Pakistan is completely different than with the Taliban which is different than with Iran, which is different than with Libya today. Each case is unique and is approached differently. Nonetheless, all of them are players in this much larger war.
Germany’s protection is not delivered by some Polizei in Germany; as Struck even said, it’s determined in the Hindukusch. By being an “ankle biter” you don’t make yourself a constructive nation.
Let me address your love of France again-
After WWII the French wanted to demand war reparations from Germany in a near Treaty of Versailles manner. Hmmmmmm, German prisoners were treated so well by the French/sarcasm. France after WWII wanted no rebuilt Germany; they didn’t even want to see you get help through the Marshall Plan.
After WWII they tried to reassume their pre WWII colonial position, and failed. That’s how Vietnam started. But that war transitioned into a feud between the Soviets and the US. Algeria, today in the Ivory Coast are all examples of colonial strife’s.
Why do you think the French left the Eurofighter project? How did they vote on the EU Constitution? Funny how you call the Poles “nationalist” and how this will cause problems for your EU but how you seem to never mention your new found friends the French in this context.
France is a little power that “aspires” to be big. They are economically a basket case, not to unlike Germany, only smaller yet. There military is professional, but it lacks the industrial base, the national level assets, the strategic capabilities, size and money to really be a world player. Fact is, France can’t get the Ivory Coat under control, and that’s not a big issue! It took us DAYS for us in Liberia (Right next door). We did that in 2003, the SAME time we were fighting in Republic of Georgia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Philippines, Columbia, Sinai, Balkans, S. Korea. While we were engaged in all these places we sent 4,500 troops to Liberia as part of a peace enforcement mission. Of course that’s not worth mentioning for “Der Speigel” since “Kein Blut fuer Oel” is much more important. Are we still in Liberia? Nope. Are the French still in the Ivory Coast? Yep. 150 years no to be precise, and they have no intentions of leaving. Do you think they are there as “allies” or as “partners” of the Ivory Coast?
Why did France not put it’s nuclear weapons under NATO control 40 years ago? Because they are such supra-national thinking multi-nationalists must have been the reason?
France is a “has been” with huge ambitions. They see the world in a polar fashion and are national thinking unilateralists. Organizations like NATO work against their ambitions. Germany is actually in a geo-political context MORE in line with the US security policy than France. There may be differences in how to achieve the “end state” but our goals are identical. Iraq was not about a disagreement on the threat of Iraq. It was not about “Kein Blut fuer Oel”. It was about an allied nation playing games with the collective security interests of all of NATO/Europe/N. America. As time goes on, this will become more and more apparent, but those who played this game or supported it, seldom publicly admit or reflect on their errors.
Back to “pragmatism” or a “realpolitik”
Think about this –
a. Security policy:
Iraq
Deny Islamist threat
Anti-SDI publicly but behind closed doors buys PAC-3 (Literally same time)
b. Economically:
No nuclear power
Kyoto
Tax hike of VAT
Pflegeversicherung
ABM jobs….
Big subsidies…..
Oekosteuer (What insanity! A tax which from an economists point of view DIScourages consumption) Economically seen this is backwards of what you want to do. It’s literally something you could do to stun economic growth.
Is this “Pragmatic” or “Realpolitik”? No. As I said before. Germany is burning trash it’s PAYING for to have recycled (Der Gruene Punkt). Germany shipped it’s Recycling trash around the world to Indonesia to dump for a long time! Kyoto is not being abided by. Germany is buying TBM defense missiles and is a member of MEADS (Specifically for the TBM threat), yet yelled it’s heart out about the Bush Cowboy, the global destabilizer. So, what is your opinion TODAY about the Islamic threat? Still want to pound the party line of Schroeder from 2002 (It’s just Bush’s imagination)?
What Germany had at the wheel steering it was an embarrassment! It was shear voter chasing at any cost. Nothing was holly; no issue was off the table. It was all OK as long as it meant that a Schroeder would get reelected. Now, Germany is experiencing a return to common sense. No doubt the CDU/CSU/FDP influence will rub off in a positive way even if they don’t have the overwhelming power they really need to make profound changes. Especially in foreign policy Germany will walk a much steadier path in line with the US.
Der Gruene Punkt - http://www.p2pays.org/ref/03/02949.pdf Since some here will make counter claims; has an enormous cost associated with it. It is NOT a self carrying system where through the generated revenue from the recycled materials the system can self finance itself. No it’s another subsidized system that is a load on the economy. So, now the Germans are left with a subsidized system that does NOT deliver what was stated and are burning or even shipping trash around the planet (Shipping is good for the environment you know!) that the consumer pays a “TAX” on for this recycling plan. Summary- you pay a tax for recycling which is to costly so some of the trash is burned, but since you couldn’t burn it all some years ago you just shipped it with ships literally to the other side of the planet. Very “pragmatic”.
In reality, you didn’t like the administration of Schroeder. However, you defended his actions nonetheless because as a German you feel you “have to”. Da ich Deutsch bin muss ich diesen Schwachsin verteidigen! (That’s your line of thought). It would be as if I try to defend the Inactions of Carter or the personal behavior of Clinton or his Inaction against AQ or in Rwanda. You shouldn’t defend the indefensible. With your new found German identity, some national pride you quickly and easily were led around by the nose. You can try to turn arguments around but basically your whole defense is rhetorical and based on polemics.
If you want to economically self destruct because of the socialist movements within your society, that’s your problem. When you undermine a security policy and system, military, intelligence and other security institutions, operations and activities because of some “game” that some politician is playing, then the US becomes very interested. For all I care you should make yourself dependent on Russian gas, close your nuclear power plants and build more coal burning plants (As was the case under Schroeder while he signed Kyoto and talked about environmentalism)… - Germany burns lots of Braun Kohle, which is just about the cheapest most polluting trash you can burn -- The US don’t care about that! But if you think you’re sovereign and want to run to France because you don’t want to help an ally in trouble, if you even undermine him in NATO, the EU and UN because there is political capital that can be gained in the 2002 elections you’re way off course.
Red6
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