300,000 attend Rabbi Kaduri's funeral [world's greatest Kabbalist Rabbi]

The Jerusalem Post ^ | January 29, 2006 | Matthew Wagner and Jpost Staff

[sasportas]

I bet they tend to be more conservative.....am I wrong?

According to the Karaite I talked to, the Karaites are the more conservative...of course they would say that.

The difference is Karaite conservatism is based strictly on the Bible only, while the conservativism of the Talmudists is based on the Talmud. Which on many points differs from the Bible.

[wardaddy]

Thanks for explaining...I never knew that and thought for a Mississippi Goy that I was pretty familiar with Judaism

[ChicagoHebrew]

They call themselves Jews and Karaites, just as a Chabanik calls himself both a Jew and a Chabadnik, and a Sephardi calls himself both a Jew and a Sephardi. They don't see a contradiction. The State of Israel considers them Jews, and Karaites are eligible under the law of return, but they are listed as Karaites on their ID cards. Orthodox rabbinic Jews don't obviously consider Karaites Jewish (although that requires a tortured interpretation of Jewish law, given that Karaites descend from clearly identifiable Israelite populations), but that doesn't mean Karaites don't consider themselves Jewish. You might be thinking of Samaritans, who forcefully deny that they are Jewish.

Yes, I am Jewish, and not a Karaite. Although I sympathize somewhat with Karaites on certain issues.

[ChicagoHebrew]

The Karaites, on the other hand, have only 10 principles of faith:

1. Creatio ex nihilo; (Creation from nothing)

2. The existence of a Creator, God; (Elohiym)

3. This God (Elohiym) is an absolute unity as well as incorporeal; (indescribable)

4. Moses and the other prophets were sent by God; (Elohiym)

5. God (Elohiym) has given to us the Torah, which is true and complete in every respect, not wanting the addition of the so-called Oral Law;

6. The Torah must be studied by every Jew in the original (Hebrew) language;

7. The Holy Temple was a place elected by God (Elohiym)for His manifestation;

8. Resurrection of the dead;

9. Punishment and reward after death;

10. The Coming of the Messiah, the son of David.

From a Karaite website: http://karaites-beth-shalom.org/karaites_on_resurrection.htm

[Alouette]

The Noda Beyehudah (Rabbi Yehezkel Landau) wrote some tshuvot on Kar'aim, from a halachic perspective their status as Jews is complicated. For example, if a Jew married a Kara'ite woman, and they separate, is he required to give her get?

[ChicagoHebrew]

I've read a lot about Karaism. I actually think they make excellent points on some things -- such as waiting until the Abib (barley) ripens before celebrating Passover (because the Torah prescribes that Passover is in "the month of Abib"). And that, in general, much of Karaism is -- in theory -- more logical than rabbinic Judaism.

On the other hand, Karaites are hypocrites because they have their own Oral Law and interpretations (although they deny doing so), such as their ridiculous interpretation regarding fire on the Sabbath.

[sasportas]

1. Creatio ex nihilo; (Creation from nothing)

This sounds like the Karaites are creationists (creation from nothing) not evolutionists. If so, three cheers for the Karaites!

[sangrila]

"Ok. So, Torah is the bible. Why not call Bible then?"


The Torah is only the first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament and Jews call the Tankh. I am not sure if they are exactly the same collection of books, but they are basically the same thing as far as I know. The Christian Bible is comprised of the entire Old Testament (or Tanakh) and the New Testament. The Torah is only the first 5 of the 60+ books in the Bible, so they really aren't even close to being the same thing.

And I believe the Talmud is Jewish commentary on the Tankh that came many years after the scriptures were written.

I am not Jewish or a religious scholar, so anyone can feel free to correct my descriptions of the books.

[sasportas]

Apparently, from what I have read, the Torah has narrow and more broader meanings. The first five books of the Bible, the Penteteuch, are the Torah in its strictest sense. Yet, some use it in a more broader sense inclusive of the Tanakh...and sometimes even broader, the Talmud...and sometimes even the Kabbalah.

The broader uses of it are probably due to divine revelation. That is, they hold them to be revelations from God and ought to be called "Torah" also.

Other than the Penteteuch, I believe the only broader use of the term would be the Tanach since it is also the revelation of God...which Christians call the Old Testament.

[wardaddy]

many a cold hearth on Friday evenings in the Karaite home I gather?

[Cinnamon Girl]

You've just demostrated once again that Karaites are NOT Jewish. If they have their own principles of faith, then are have their OWN FAITH. And no, they are not considered Jews by any Jews. How do they explain "an eye for an eye" since they reject Oral Law? Judaism is Judaism. I seriously don't get where you are coming from. Do you think Christians are actually Jewish? Or that Jews are actually Christian? Are Muslims actually Christian? Are Bahai actually Muslim? Just wondering.

[Cinnamon Girl]

The Talmud is the Oral Law and that was given at Mount Sinai along with the Written Law to Moses at the same time.

[Cinnamon Girl]

They call themselves Jews and Karaites, just as a Chabanik calls himself both a Jew and a Chabadnik, and a Sephardi calls himself both a Jew and a Sephardi. They don't see a contradiction.

This analogy is WAY off. Have you discussed your theories with any rabbis? Sephardim, Lubavitch, Misnagdim, Ashkenazim-- all believe in the 13 principles of faith, and believe in the Oral and Written Law. They are ALL Jews. The Karaites do not believe these things. They are NOT Jewish.

[sasportas]

You are not one of those Madonna types, devout Kabbalists, are you, Cinnamon?

[ChicagoHebrew]

They call themselves Jews and Karaites, just as a Chabanik calls himself both a Jew and a Chabadnik, and a Sephardi calls himself both a Jew and a Sephardi. They don't see a contradiction. This analogy is WAY off. Have you discussed your theories with any rabbis? Sephardim, Lubavitch, Misnagdim, Ashkenazim

No, the analogy is perfect. I wasn't speaking about what Orthodox Jews think. I was speaking about what Karaites THEMSELVES think. Just as a Chabanik thinks he's both a Chabadnik and a Jew, a Karaite thinks of himself as both a Karaite and a Jew.

Are you just dense? I've never claimed that Orthodox Jews consider Karaites to be Jews. I've claimed, and my analogy went to show, that the Karaites think of THEMSELVES as Jews.

[ChicagoHebrew]

As to what I think . . . the Karaites are a lot closer to Judaism than Reform, Reconstructionist, or Chabad Judaism is.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Madonna thinks she's practicing Kabbalah. Does that mean she is, ChicagoHebrew? Orthodox Jews aren't the only ones who know Karaites aren't Jews and don't practice Judaism. It's a free country. If people want to say they are Jewish even if they aren't, no one can stop them. And again, your analogy to the Lubavitch is WRONG. Lubavitch are Torah Jews. Karaites are KARAITES. I do not care what a website group of believing Karaites says about their religion. It's NOT Judaism.

[Cinnamon Girl]

the Karaites are a lot closer to Judaism than Reform, Reconstructionist, or Chabad Judaism is.

?????????? What?

[Alouette]

the Karaites are a lot closer to Judaism than Reform, Reconstructionist, or Chabad Judaism is.

Rabbi Kaduri (the subject of this thread, remember?) visited with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I don't recall that he ever visited with Karaites.

[Ciexyz]

Hmmm, I thought this thread would be about the life and passing of a respected and revered Rabbi.