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To: OB1kNOb
O.K., now this is what I'm talking about - I knew if I slept on it long enough, SOMEONE would at least try to find ONE law - here's the issue then, just so you know what you are up against (if anyone else wants to actually discuss the law and apply the facts in this case, please join OB1kNOb and me in said civil discussion; if not, don't be surprised if I decline to keep answering your questions over and over when you fail to return me the same courtesy):

Does Wells Fargo "know" these home loan applicants are illegal aliens or, "in reckless disregard of the fact, encourage or induce an alien to reside"?

You obviously cannot just assume that Wells Fargo "knows" - they are not asking of course and, we have to presume as well, they would not fund a loan if that were evident on the paperwork submitted. As your own post notes: "Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance." Where the rubber meets the road will be if 1) Wells Fargo can be found in "reckless disregard" to that fact and 2) funding a home loan qualifies as "encourag[ing] or induc[ing] an alien to reside". I will also address below 3) everything else you threw up against the wall to see what sticks.

1) "Reckless" according to Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed., depends on the factual circumstances and "may mean desperately heedless, wanton or willful, or it may mean only careless, inattentive, or negligent . . . A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of the actor's conduct and circumstances known to him it's disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation. Model Penal Code § 202(c)." As an example, reckless "within the meaning of requirement for commission of involuntary manslaughter [is] when he he consciously disregards substantial and unjustifiable risk that his acts are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual and where such disregard constitutes gross deviation from standard of care which reasonable person would exercise is such situation. People v. Griffith 14 Ill.Dec. 393, 56 Ill.App.3d 747, 372 N.E.2d 404".

How would a Court rule on these questions, or I think more importantly, will otherwise "law-abiding" lenders join with Wells Fargo and simply make this the acceptable standard of conduct / within the standard of care? We simply don't have enough facts at this point in time to predict, but I'm sure their lawyers have, at the very least, put procedures into place to argue they are not in "reckless disregard." For instance, some stringent guidelines for not accepting applications with known false statements or other obvious errors. You already know that Wells Fargo is requiring TWO in-person meetings - I purchased a home recently and can testify I never met the Countrywide rep once.

2) On the funding of a home loan qualifying as "encourag[ing] or induc[ing] an alien to reside", I might be willing to give you that one, for the purpose of argument, pending some applicable case law on point holding otherwise. Thanks for your post - let me know if you have any questions about the above analysis.

Thanks also for being the only one to respond with an arguably applicable law, and good luck with any such prosecution(s) or even helping Pelham with his / her very own personal RICO action for that matter - gotta love the American way - woo hoo!

3) As for the First Amendment (I never claimed that as justification) or tax code violations, actual alien smuggling or harboring as against Wells Fargo, fair labor practices, workers compensation, zoning, safe housing and rental property, nuisance, licensing, street vending, and solicitations by contractors allegations, you will have to be a bit more specific in said application to this particular Wells Fargo "Celebrate Home" program for me to render any meaningful comment.

305 posted on 01/25/2006 10:58:27 AM PST by clawrence3
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To: clawrence3
Does Wells Fargo "know" these home loan applicants are illegal aliens or, "in reckless disregard of the fact, encourage or induce an alien to reside"?

If they use a Mexican Connsular card as ID and cannot provide an Birth Certificate (hey, I have to provide said birth certificate to apply for a CAR loan, even though I have 3 forms of ID) - They Are ILLEGAL! They better be able to show a visa at that point, and if not... off you go.

But you bet your bottom dollar that Wells Fartgo just don't care. Remember "that's for the feds".
312 posted on 01/25/2006 2:10:33 PM PST by Jhohanna (Born Free)
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