WHICH CREATION STORY?

Sullivan County Tenn ^ | Unknown | Rev. James W. Watkins

[Just mythoughts]

Acts 10 begins the conversion of 'gentiles', Peter's instruction (that place where some Christians claim that the pig was made a clean food to eat) that Christ was sent for all peoples not just to those of the circumcision.

Now circumcision is a 'blood' ordinance not a law. So acceptance of Christ is not reliant upon circumcision of flesh, another place calls it circumcision of the heart not actual blood letting.

Acts 15 comes about because apparently there was a sect of Pharisees (15:5) who were demanding a blood letting as part of their religion.

There is a difference in the laws, statutes, and ordinances, especially the blood ordinances.

Now if you look carefully Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (sure sounds like at least the first 4 commandments to me) and from fornication, (sure sounds like religious practices like fertility egg rolling) and from things strangled, and from blood. (hmmmmm health food laws????)

[Accygirl]

Even after five hundred years of social and political upheaval and wars?

[newguy357]

No, I didn't "name call" actually. If you take the time to read what I wrote, I told you that if you believed "the tree has green leaves" and "the tree has brown bark" to be contradictory statements then you are a moron. Apparently you do, so thanks for clearing that up.

Thanks for reminding me that the name of this thread is "which creation story." Let me also remind you that there have been articles titled "Bush is a liar" before. Apparently in your mind any article title must be true (i.e., there MUST be multiple creation stories, because the name of the article says so) so you must also concede that Bush is in fact a liar. I'm sure we could find some other entertaining thread titles that you are forced to believe by your own reasoning (or lack thereof).

What is appalling is that you actually think two creation stories causes me fear. No, actually if the first two chapters really are symbolic I don't care because my faith remains unchanged. It is not necessary to what I believe. Not at all. What's frightening is YOUR intense fear of the truth. The truth: there is no logical inconsistency that REQURES the first two chapters to be solely symbolic. They may be, but they don't need to be. I don't see why you can't admit that, because it is blatant. The only conclusion is that you're intentionally blinding to yourself to the truth--presumably because it frightens you in some way. If you enjoy picking out pieces of scripture and arbitrarily labeling them as "symbolic" because you have infused your own internal contradictions into them, then why don't you label the stories of Jesus' life as allegorical? Why not? There is no logical need within the text for Jesus' life to be symbolic, but there isn't a logical need for the first two chapters of Gen. to be symbolic either, so if you're going to label the one at random why not the other?

Did I wander into an adult conversation? Far from it. It was like coming upon a couple children in the woods debating whether or not they could fly by thinking happy thoughts--after all, tinker bell in Peter Pan said they could. The truth is apparent and if you refuse to see it, so be it. I'm wasting no more time with you.

[Elsie]

6 But now we have been delivered from the law>/b>, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law...12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Romans 8

You posted it yourself! ;^) One more time:

The LAW was given to JEWS, only.

If you can find ANYWHERE in the NT that it is laid on MY back, please post it.

---

Remember that the NY was written to BOTH Jews as well as Gentiles. Keep the audience in mind when reading the letters and epistles and such.

[Elsie]

Yes

[papertyger]

Yes, but...

It's always a "yes but" with people that treat Jesus as a theological Santa Claus. There is literally a heresy in every sentence of your reply.

Jesus' authority derives from what the Hebrew Bible said about him, not some kind of ancient public opinion poll. His ministry was NOT being a proto-Marxist, but rather to perform a mission, and and while performing that mission to convince those who had come up with variations of "Yea, hath God said...?" that their disingenuousness was carrying them to hell with verses of Scripture on their lips.

In no way was Jesus' "whole deal" to summarize the commandments. His whole deal was to die for the offenses of others.

Are you going to tell me you think He literally walked on water, changed water to wine, and commanded storms.... but the notion that materialist philosophy is at the root of the pronouncements of "science" is preposterous?

[Elsie]

Now circumcision is a 'blood' ordinance not a law.

 

Not exactly:

 

Genesis 17

 9.  Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
 10.  This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
 11.  You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
 12.  For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.
 13.  Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
 14.  Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

 

 

Nothing in here about Gentiles.....

[Elsie]

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (sure sounds like at least the first 4 commandments to me) and from fornication, (sure sounds like religious practices like fertility egg rolling) and from things strangled, and from blood. (hmmmmm health food laws????)

But the 10 are engraved on stone - written - so that they'd not change.

The ones in ACTS are ALSO 'written' so there'd be no doubt as to what was said.

Please don't read between the lines and end up saying things that are not intended.

[Elsie]

That didn't come out right!

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law...12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Romans 8

[SuzyQue]

Paul also says:

...²⁹Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, ³⁰since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. ³¹Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3

We can't take one small part and try to prove anything. We need to look at the passage and the Book overall.

[Just mythoughts]

"12. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring."


"Nothing in here about Gentiles..... "


Really, who would be these "born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner -- those who are not your offspring" be describing and talking about?

Now was Christ circumcised? If one is to teach Christ how can one ignore that? Point was that circumcision was not a requirement for salvation, serving Christ or become a member of the 'family' in Christ, which is was a certain group of Pharisees were demanding.

James is the one speaking about what he thought should be written to the Gentiles and he follows up with For Moses of old time hath in very city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Now how does one teach Christ and ignore Moses, after all who was it with Christ on the mount of transfiguration??

[Just mythoughts]

Thank you for the warning to NOT read between the lines.

I am not interested in putting 'my' spin on what is Written, rather understand what is Written and to whom it is Written to.

[Elsie]

We can't take one small part and try to prove anything.

 

I've come to about the end of my 'evidence'.  It's now up to the Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment.

 

 

 

Galatians 3

 1.  You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
 2.  I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
 3.  Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
 4.  Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
 5.  Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
 6.  Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
 7.  Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
 8.  The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
 9.  So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
 10.  All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
 11.  Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
 12.  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
 13.  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
 14.  He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 15.  Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.
 16.  The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"  meaning one person, who is Christ.
 17.  What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
 18.  For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
 19.  What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
 20.  A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
 21.  Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
 22.  But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
 23.  Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
 24.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ  that we might be justified by faith.
 25.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
 26.  You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
 27.  for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
 28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 29.  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Elsie]

Now how does one teach Christ and ignore Moses, after all who was it with Christ on the mount of transfiguration??

 

By reading in Hebrews....

 

Hebrews 3

 

 1.  Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
 2.  He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house.
 3.  Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.
 4.  For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
 5.  Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future.
 6.  But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
 7.  So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, 
 8.  do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,
 9.  where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.
 10.  That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, `Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
 11.  So I declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'"
 12.  See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
 13.  But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
 14.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
 15.  As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
 16.  Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
 17.  And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert?
 18.  And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?
 19.  So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

[Just mythoughts]

Hebrews 3 does not ignore Moses, actually does a whole lot of pointing back to Moses as foundation upon which Christ would come. One could accurately say that Paul is making Moses's writings required reading to understand Christ and what Paul is telling us this day.

[Just mythoughts]

How does one demonstrate faith? Did Abraham show his faith by just saying I believe or did he actually do something to demonstrate his faith.

Now we are told we are all sinners, and sin is transgression of the law. Now if the law is no longer in effect then there should be no sin.

That sinner hanging beside Christ was given grace because he believed Christ, so it was not the law that saved his soul it was Christ. Yet he obviously broke a law else he would not have been hanging upon that cross.

[SuzyQue]

Yes, Romans 3 addresses that very well:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.

[Elsie]

Yet he obviously broke a law else he would not have been hanging upon that cross.

Oh? Show me which one.

[Elsie]

Oops!

I posted the wrong stuff.

I have no idea which law he broke, since it was a Roman cross, he could have offended Rome.

But you are right; it was his faith in Christ that saved him, not any amount of 10 commandement keeping.

[Elsie]

Have we all just agreed? ;^)