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Myth: Schools don't have enough money
2006 John Stossel ^ | John Stossel

Posted on 01/18/2006 6:54:15 AM PST by Millee

"Stossel is an idiot who should be fired from ABC and sent back to elementary school to learn journalism." "Stossel is a right-wing extremist ideologue."

The hate mail is coming in to ABC over a TV special I did Friday (1/13). I suggested that public schools had plenty of money but were squandering it, because that's what government monopolies do.

Many such comments came in after the National Education Association (NEA) informed its members about the special and claimed that I have a "documented history of blatant antagonism toward public schools." "Stossel is an idiot who should be fired from ABC and sent back to elementary school to learn journalism." "Stossel is a right-wing extremist ideologue."

Not enough money for education? It's a myth.

The truth is, public schools are rolling in money. If you divide the U.S. Department of Education's figure for total spending on K-12 education by the department's count of K-12 students, it works out to about $10,000 per student.

Think about that! For a class of 25 kids, that's $250,000 per classroom. This doesn't include capital costs. Couldn't you do much better than government schools with $250,000? You could hire several good teachers; I doubt you'd hire many bureaucrats. Government schools, like most monopolies, squander money.

America spends more on schooling than the vast majority of countries that outscore us on the international tests. But the bureaucrats still blame school failure on lack of funds, and demand more money.

In 1985, some of them got their wish. Kansas City, Mo., judge Russell Clark said the city's predominately black schools were not "halfway decent," and he ordered the government to spend billions more. Did the billions improve test scores? Did they hire better teachers, provide better books? Did the students learn anything?

Well, they learned how to waste lots of money.

The bureaucrats renovated school buildings, adding enormous gyms, an Olympic swimming pool, a robotics lab, TV studios, a zoo, a planetarium, and a wildlife sanctuary. They added intense instruction in foreign languages. They spent so much money that when they decided to bring more white kids to the city's schools, they didn't have to resort to busing. Instead, they paid for 120 taxis. Taxis!

What did spending billions more accomplish? The schools got worse. In 2000, five years and $2 billion later, the Kansas City school district failed 11 performance standards and lost its academic accreditation for the first time in the district's history.

A study by two professors at the Hoover Institution a few years ago compared public and Catholic schools in three of New York City's five boroughs. Parochial education outperformed the nation's largest school system "in every instance," they found -- and it did it at less than half the cost per student.

"Everyone has been conned -- you can give public schools all the money in America, and it will not be enough," says Ben Chavis, a former public school principal who now runs the American Indian Charter School in Oakland, Calif. His school spends thousands less per student than Oakland's government-run schools spend.

Chavis saves money by having students help clean the grounds and set up for lunch. "We don't have a full-time janitor," he told me. "We don't have security guards. We don't have computers. We don't have a cafeteria staff." Since Chavis took over four years ago, his school has gone from being among the worst middle schools in Oakland to the one where the kids get the best test scores. "I see my school as a business," he said. "And my students are the shareholders. And the families are the shareholders. I have to provide them with something."


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: educationfunding; myth; pspl; publicschool; publicschools; stossel
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To: Millee

bump


161 posted on 01/18/2006 7:42:53 PM PST by VOA
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To: SoftballMominVA

Let's run another set of figures on that 25 child classroom.

Let's say that there is one autistic/special needs child (of the sort that requires exorbitant spending...not just ADHD and the like) for every 25 students.

So, 250,000 right? Then how about $9,000 apiece for 24 kids - that leaves $34,000 for that one autistic child.

And according to this site:
http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/incidence.htm

By the broadest definition is roughly 1 in 110 and most of those (like Asperger's syndrome) do not require the sort of treatment you mention. For autism proper, its 1 in 2,000.

So, running those numbers again, if we assume one child in 110 needs expensive attention (they don't) then you have a "pool" of 1.1 million for those 110 kids.

Let's say that we spend 9,900 per "normal" child instead of $10,000 then you have $20,900 to spend on that one child.

If we spend $9,700 on the 109, then we have $42,700 for the one.

Getting the picture?

Now, if we speak of the one in 2,000 who actually needs dramatic spending, then you have a "pool" of $20 million.

For the 1,999 we will spend $9,950 apiece. That leaves $109,950 to spend on the one.

Rethinking your position yet?


162 posted on 01/18/2006 10:40:00 PM PST by WillRain ("Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
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To: SoftballMominVA

Your expansions on the point are well argued, but most of them seem to - in the end - point to problems in the way the money is used (which was Stossel's point) rather than the absence of money.


163 posted on 01/18/2006 11:23:55 PM PST by WillRain ("Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
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To: vik

A striking, if controversial (in some quarters!) observation.


164 posted on 01/18/2006 11:29:30 PM PST by WillRain ("Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
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To: SoftballMominVA

Do you have some objective evidence that things like wheelchairs are paid for directly out of the regular school budget?

Or even full time residential facilities. A child's whole life is not school, it seems highly suspicious to me that such full-time facilities are billed exclusively to the regular school budget.

Beyond that, while such a student might be quite expensive, they are exceedingly rare...assuradly even more rare than the 1 in 2,000 figure cited above for the autistic child. what is it? One child in 5,000? 10,000? more? - that requires residential care?

1 in 10,000 could require over $10 million annually and the other 9,999 would still pull down $9,000 apeice.


165 posted on 01/18/2006 11:36:24 PM PST by WillRain ("Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
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Comment #166 Removed by Moderator

To: WillRain

Yes, I can prove my point by three means. Go to your own school system and ask to see a line item budget and find the line for residential care. Also, Google IDEA and read the law in terms of what it says about "Continuum of placement". In addition, I can prove it one more way. When I get to school, I will scan a document from an IEP and show the line that indicates a child can be placed in a residential center. Check back for that later.


167 posted on 01/19/2006 4:42:13 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: WillRain
You neglected to include other disabilities, such as Learning disabled (granted, this is the most populous group, but the cheapest to educate in the disabled catagory), educable mentally retarded, trainable mentally retarded, severe and profound, emotionally disturbed, medically fragile, speech and language and hard of hearing. Each grade level typically has about one in each catagory in a school of about 1000

. In addtion, the ESOL population takes up quite a bit of money (Although I don't know how much. I do not work with that area)

Our school of 500 has about 70 LD,1 EMR (educatd outside the school) 0 TMR, 0 SP, 6 ED, 2 MF, 29 SL, 3 Hearing Impaired, 3 Autistic, no Vision Impaired. In addition, we have an occupational and physical therapist that come in to work with 7 kids each week for various issues. Because of our high number of speech kids, our pathologist is full time.

168 posted on 01/19/2006 4:51:05 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA
Rather than scan a document, which admittedly, comes with no explanations, here is an excerpt, with link, to an explanation of FAPE (free appropriate public education )with respect to Continuum of Placement

States receiving funds under IDEA must make a free appropriate public education available to eligible children with disabilities. The provision of a free appropriate public education requires that all special education and related services identified in a student's IEP must be provided at no cost to the parents. The term "special education" is defined at 34 CFR 300.17(a) as "specially designed instruction, at no cost to the parents, to meet the unique needs of a child with a disability, including --

(I) Instruction conducted in the classroom, in the home, in hospitals and institutions, and in other settings; and

(ii) Instruction in physical education.

(2) The term includes speech pathology, or any other related service, if the service consists of specially designed instruction, at no cost to the parents, to meet the unique needs of a child with a disability, and is considered special education rather than a related service under State standards."


http://www.wrightslaw.com/ explains many of the ins and outs of special education. They do a pretty good job of putting it in layman's terms.

169 posted on 01/19/2006 6:09:12 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA

Your comments are so interesting. I've seen that here in Los Angeles too.

How to reduce costs? How about chucking the entire Department of Education? Wasn't Bush going to do that? There's a cost-saver for you. And then teaching the 3-R's and leaving it at that.

Suing should be totally out of the pix.

I think education has to be fixed from without. The Administrators are not going to be able to reform it, nor the NEA.


170 posted on 01/19/2006 6:31:56 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: Millee
The problem is where all this money is going. I am from one of the wealthiest areas in the US where the average family income is $50,000.00 Our schools despite being good were foolishly wasting money.

Most of the buildings were over 50 years old and some near 100, our textbooks were falling apart and out of date, the buildings were in a state of disrepair with the power and heat failing on a regualr basis. Despite all of this in my 4 years of high school we were able to get 100s of new computers and new OS and software every year.

171 posted on 01/19/2006 6:35:10 AM PST by LukeL
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To: Millee

Stossel is so correct on this issue, I would like to have the chance to vote for him.

He is bursting the baloon of the NEA and the teachers unions.

Too many "parents" for far too long have bought into this myth about funding per student.

Here's another thought:
If the calculations are based on a "classroom" count, I believe that students go from classroom to classroom during the day, therefore, the $$$ spent "per student" is understated.

WAAAAYYYYY understated.


172 posted on 01/19/2006 6:41:45 AM PST by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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To: Mr. K

Anyone have an address for Chavis? I have some old (but still good only 2 years old) computers I would gladly donate. ""

My brother has a storage unit full of similar stuff.

I know he would like to donate it, but has been rebuffed by the local schools in Madison. Wis.

If there is an address to inquire, please contact me privately and I will speak to him.


173 posted on 01/19/2006 6:43:58 AM PST by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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To: bboop

One of our children will be a middle schooler next year. Recently, he came home with a list of elective classes from which to choose. Teen Living and Tech Ed are two of the choices. Nine weeks of Spanish and/or French are options. We homeschooled our eldest when she was a sixth grader. She begged to go back to school, so we let her go to the seventh grade. She signed up late, so she had to take the seventh grade versions of some of these courses. In Spanish, you learn to count to 20 or maybe 100. And you learn a few phrases and colors. Never mind that our daughter already knew all these things from second grade in another state.

Soooooo, our son has these choices, and hubby and I are bothered by the waste of time that all the electives are. Our son can already cook. He can already type. He can already turn on a computer and search the internet. He can use power tools. He has no interest in band or chorus. We think he should be able to take a full year of a foreign language. The school says that sixth grade is a tough transitional year and that the students need to try out a few things before they decide what subjects they want to pursue further. I made an inquiry via email of the head counselor. She sent my email on to a higher pay grade, the assistant principal for sixth grade. When my husband entered the email conversation, our emails were copied to another higher pay grade individual, the principal. When I responded to the asst. principal's emails, I told my husband that the emails would be sent to an even higher pay grade individual, and they were. Yesterday, I received an email from the head of the entire school system's language department. She was the most intelligent and articulate regarding this subject. She went on about how the school system powers that be decided on offering the subjects they offer to sixth graders. They did a survey. Of whom, we are not sure. The subjects seem to be the same as the subjects I took in seventh grade in Mississipi back when we had junior high schools. They renamed Home Economics as Teen Living. So, the schools are preparing sixth graders for seven years of their lives? Shop class was renamed Tech Ed. They were a waste of time when I was in seventh grade, and they are a waste of time now for sixth graders. These children need to be preparing for their futures. Wasting an hour a day on dead end subjects is not what students need. I let them all know that they are failing these students. They should have been teaching them alternative languages in first grade. And they are balking at teaching a sixth grader. I told them it was past time for them to adapt to the world as it is today. No response from them as of yet.


174 posted on 01/19/2006 7:07:47 AM PST by petitfour
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To: petitfour

I'm not surprised. Why aren't you homeschooling? I found it even more imperative as my son got older. And the fruits are so good. And it keeps them out of the teen/ peer group fray.


175 posted on 01/19/2006 7:13:58 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: bboop

Sports. And our girls have had very good opportunities due to their status as "gifted." If we see that our son is being unduly influenced, we will pull him out in a heartbeat. As it is, I will push the schools to offer more.


176 posted on 01/19/2006 7:23:14 AM PST by petitfour
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To: avg_freeper

"He'd rent space at a posh office park, have well paid professional tutors, and have the meals served by expensive caterers. He lays out the prices for all of this and it would still be less than what we're being fleeced for now."

Yeah, but I bet he didn't include one major item: sports programs.

The thing that no one wants to talk about is how much sports programs cost. A huge portion of monies which go to school go to sports programs. Ever think about how much it costs to fund a decent high school football program? Not to mention lots of other types of sports.


177 posted on 01/19/2006 7:44:59 AM PST by webstersII
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To: SoftballMominVA

Did you check out the link that I posted that provided findings: " recent study put the average cost of educating disabled students at 90 percent greater than the cost of educating students without disabilities." If that is the case, the cost of educating disabled students relative to the cost of educating all students would no grossly raise the level of overall cost.


178 posted on 01/19/2006 8:00:03 AM PST by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Disambiguator

Eliminating public-funded education would only work if you could trust parents to provide an education for their kids. If you had irresponsible parents, it would be the kids that would go through life crippled because they had not been educated. You don't want a temporary money crunch causing a kid to miss part of a year of schooling. That kind of disruption could put the kid at a serious disadvantage.

This is the public purpose that justifies public funding and mandatory education for everybody.

Vouchers are the perfect compromise. They encourage parents that care to find the best education -- even if it costs more than the voucher provides -- but not be stuck with the entire cost in addition to the taxes they are paying. To lower the overall tax burden, the vouchers should be only a percentage of whatever the public school spent per pupil -- say 60%. If the private school can actually do it better for half the cost, they'll still come out ahead on the deal. Meanwhile, the taxpayer also comes out ahead for every student that moves from public to private.


179 posted on 01/19/2006 2:31:59 PM PST by Kellis91789 (Rome didn't build a great Empire by having meetings. It did it by killing all who opposed it.)
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To: Westbrook
We educate each of our nine children at home for about $200 to $500 apiece, varying according to the complexity of their studies.

But how much do you pay your teacher? What are your transportation expenses?

There is, of course, waste in the public school system, just as there is in any bureaucracy, but it's not all the fault of the unions or even of the school systems.

For instance, the courts have mandated that all children are entitled to an education, even those who will never function even at the level of a bright two-year old. In fact, those children are allowed to attend public schools until they are at least 21 years old - and some of them have their own dedicated paraprofessional to accompany them everywhere they go in addition to a certified teacher, and require special transportation because they can't ride the bus with the "normal" kids.

Hopefully, your children are all healthy and reasonably bright, and you don't have to deal with that sort of thing at your house.

Private schools don't have to deal with that sort of thing, either, and they don't have to deal with discipline problems, and they can make parents buy some of the supplies public schools have to provide for all students if they're going to use them because public schools can't discriminate against children who can't afford to buy them (at least where I live).

You might also notice that it seems to cost more to educate a child in "rich" districts than it does in "poor" districts for some reason....

180 posted on 01/19/2006 3:17:20 PM PST by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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