Posted on 01/17/2006 5:42:35 PM PST by SandRat
WASHINGTON, Jan. 17, 2006 – The Pentagon is seeking answers as to why three U.S. helicopters have crashed in Iraq within the past two weeks, a senior Defense Department official said here today. "Is there a pattern? Certainly, in recent weeks three helicopters have gone down. Nothing has been ruled in or out in any of those three cases yet," DoD spokesman Lawrence Di Rita told Pentagon reporters.
Twelve U.S. servicemembers and four civilians were killed as the result of three separate helicopter crashes that occurred in Iraq this month:
Two U.S. soldiers died yesterday when their AH-64 Apache helicopter crashed north of Taji;
Two U.S. soldiers were killed Jan. 13 when their OH-58D Kiowa helicopter crashed in Mosul; and
Eight soldiers and four civilians were killed Jan. 7 when their UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter crashed near Tal Afar.
Di Rita also said military aviation experts are examining whether the terrorists are targeting U.S. helicopters by some new means.
"Is there a new threat out there that we need to be more aware of?" Di Rita posited. However, he cautioned reporters not to jump to any conclusions.
"The first reports are very often wrong," Di Rita said.
All three crashes are being investigated, he said.
IIRC, some attack helicopter (MI-24 "Hind"?) had its bottom made of stamped titanium. Maybe, this feature could be used on the Apaches, too.
Don't they read the news? Shoulder fired missiles from our pals in Russia.
Don't they read the news? Super rifles recently sold to Iran from Austria, that fire armor piercing bullets.
Bad weather, low & slow over a combat zone...with over 1,000,000 flt. hours since 2003 in Iraqi airspace the safety record with helo's isn't way out of the norm.
First thing I thought was manpads from Iran.
Yes, and the Afghani's used to shoot them down with old heavy caliber elephant guns. They would simply aim into the rotor arc not at the fuselage. If one of the slugs hit a blade it would disintegrate.
The Soviets lost 300+ Hinds in combat in Afghanistan. That doesn't include operational losses.
Nothing released on the latest incidents, although, I suspect low and slow or hover profile when the situation demanded high energy tactics to avoid small arms and RPG fire. We'll see...
What's to look at?
The helo's are each at least one of the following:
Old,
Poorly designed for maintenance considerations,
Under supported for the necessary depot level maintenance,
Don't receive the necessary inspections and maintenance at the proper intervals.
Please note: the maintenance crews do the best they can with what they have....just remember that there's nothing sexy about funding spares and maintenance, and the services have ALWAYS suffered in these areas.
It just has a more lethal impact during war.
The helo's are each at least one of the following:
Old, Poorly designed for maintenance considerations,
Under supported for the necessary depot level maintenance,
Don't receive the necessary inspections and maintenance at the proper intervals.
Please note: the maintenance crews do the best they can with what they have....just remember that there's nothing sexy about funding spares and maintenance, and the services have ALWAYS suffered in these areas.
It just has a more lethal impact during war.
Pretty damning indictment on aviation logistics. I'm sure you have plenty of facts to back all of these assertions up...
Well, let's see, there's my tour in the USAF 35 years ago.
Then there's my brothers current 21 year stint in the Navy, which include 3 tours in the Gulf, one heading up the maintenance squadron for the MH53's.
Do you have ANY indication that the holes I cited don't exist?
You're the one making the assertion that the primary reasons for U.S. helicopter crashes are maintenance related...I just figured you have detailed, empirical data to back up a statement that lays the blame on poor logistic support and an aging fleet, not squarely on the shoulders of terrorists who shoot them down. I don't seem to recall that many crashes in theater due primarily to maintenance related failures(there have been some). Your statement asserts that the primary reason for these crashes are just that. I assert that's overreach and over simplifying causal factors...unless you have specifics that prove otherwise.
My brother is still active duty.
Citing his data would place him in the hot seat.
What percentage does your data indicate are shoot downs?
Do you have a link to the article? I'd like to know what "super rifles" means.
You know, I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer. If you aren't willing to accept that the obvious cause of the vast majority of crashes in theater are combat related rather than from material failure due to a laundry list of maintenance issues that frankly, have been chewed over for decades for any number of weapons systems, then there's no point in going any further. You've made your point. I've made mine.
Your gouge doesn't quite jibe. That might stem from your lack of familiarity with Naval Air. Each helo squadron has its own mechanics/technicians and the Navy has three MH-53E squadrons. Was your brother "I" level or "O" level?
Considering that the Army rotary winged fleet alone has flown nearly 1,000,000 hours in theater since March of 2003 the accident rate is extremely low. If poor maintenance/logistics was such a problem there'd be a significantly higher number of losses.
Search for this title to get the whole thread on FR.
Fury over Austrian 'super' rifles for Iranian
Daily Telegraph ^ | 14/01/2006 | Thomas Harding
Posted on 01/14/2006 3:07:20 AM EST by ScaniaBoy
Britain and America are furious with Austria for exporting to Iran 800 sniper rifles that could be used against their troops in Iraq.
HS50 Steyr-Mannlicher .50 calibre rifles can pierce body armour from up to a mile, shoot down helicopters and penetrate Humvee troop carriers that have not been fully reinforced.
The weapons are highly accurate and fire a round called an armour-piercing incendiary, a bullet that the Iranians manufacture.
There are fears in the Pentagon that some will reach insurgents fighting allied forces in Iraq.
Iran's Revolutionary Guard is suspected of passing on bomb-making technology to Iraqi terrorists responsible for infra-red bombs that have killed 10 British soldiers.
A Foreign Office spokesman said there were "serious concerns" over the rifle sale and London had protested to Vienna.
"Although we did make our worries known, the sale has unfortunately gone ahead and these weapons could now fall into the wrong hands," he said.
Iran allegedly bought the rifles to combat drug smugglers pouring through the borders with Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The order, worth an estimated £8 million, was placed with Steyr last year and the company was given government permission to export the weapons.
A spokesman for Austria's interior ministry said there was no reason to stop the deal.
Iran is said to be re-arming after a £455 million deal with Russia for missiles and radar to ward off any air strikes on its nuclear facilities.
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