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To: Dead Corpse
The link should lead you to page 734....where Madison, a FEDERALIST, argued that the BOR modified the Federal Constitution. The question presented, over and over in this thread, was whether the BOR applied to the states. Clearly, under the original intent, it was not so intended. As I read this work (Thanks for the link) it is readily apparent that the Framers were only concerned with securing the rights of the people against real or imagined encroachments of the FEDERAL government.

As a member of the Federalist Society, that the Anti-federalist papers took the opposing view with respect to a BOR is not meaningful to me. They made some good arguments, but history has shown the folly of their "injudicious indulgence and zeal for a BOR."

Many of the problems and misapprehensions of the electorate flow from the notion that only those rights that are enumerated are held by the people---precisely the misapprehension of which the Federalists warned. The Federalists were brilliant and prescient men....practically foreseeing the day the Supreme Court would resort to examining the emanations of the prenumbras of the BOR to "FIND" a right of privacy. Utter nonsense. And so-called conservatives think that in order to overturn Roe v. Wade, we have to reliquish our right of privacy. That level of ignorance is inexcusable. But is is precisely because the Supreme Court resorted to that contortion, that it has reinforced the belief that we are dependent on the BOR for our rights.

While you correctly state that the powers of the Federal Government were narrowly defined, You mis-apprehend the quote from the Congressional record.....It cannot mean that the Federal Government is superior in all realms. Because the federal powers were narrowly defined, it follows that the spheres of influence of the Feds and States were not necessarily overlapping. Federal law is only superior within those narrowly defined areas. States are sovereign in areas where the Fed has no authority to act. A blanket statement that Federal Law was to be superior, is therefore incorrect. The fear of the Federal government at the time of the Founding was palpable; some would say even unreasonable.

Further, Madison believed any overreaching by the Feds would quickly be quelled by the jealous attachment of the people to their local governments. Federalist 46 is directly on point: http://patriotpost.us/fedpapers/fed_46.html

"...The federal and State governments are in fact but different agents and trustees of the people, constituted with different powers, and designed for different purposes. The adversaries of the Constitution seem to have lost sight of the people altogether in their reasonings on this subject; and to have viewed these different establishments, not only as mutual rivals and enemies, but as uncontrolled by any common superior in their efforts to usurp the authorities of each other. These gentlemen must here be reminded of their error. They must be told that the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone, and that it will not depend merely on the comparative ambition or address of the different governments, whether either, or which of them, will be able to enlarge its sphere of jurisdiction at the expense of the other. Truth, no less than decency, requires that the event in every case should be supposed to depend on the sentiments and sanction of their common constituents. Many considerations, besides those suggested on a former occasion, seem to place it beyond doubt that the first and most natural attachment of the people will be to the governments of their respective States...."

In Federalist 46, Madison further observed: "...It has been already proved that the members of the federal will be more dependent on the members of the State governments, than the latter will be on the former. It has appeared also, that the prepossessions of the people, on whom both will depend, will be more on the side of the State governments, than of the federal government. So far as the disposition of each towards the other may be influenced by these causes, the State governments must clearly have the advantage...."

With the ratification of the 16th and 17th Amendments, the incorporation doctrine controversy borne of the 14th, etc......we have significantly expanded the influence of the Federal Government over that which the Founders originally envisioned. I would argue that it was a positively ludicrous acquiescence. That was our right, but it does not mean that it was wise and I do agree that our current Constitutional order bears little resemblance to that envisioned by the Founders.
416 posted on 01/17/2006 11:01:34 AM PST by Conservative Goddess (Politiae legibus, non leges politiis, adaptandae)
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To: Conservative Goddess
The question presented, over and over in this thread, was whether the BOR applied to the states. Clearly, under the original intent, it was not so intended.

Bravo Sierra. The whole debate, plus just a couple of the relavent excerpts pasted back over here, show just the opposite. That they should be cautious what powers were given to the FedGov as they would over-ride State powers. That those Federal powers be clear and limited BECAUSE no State could enact laws contrary and would in fact be expected to abide by those Federal laws as part of thier participation in the Union.

You are right that the Rights of the people are many and that only a few are ennumerated. I've never argued otherwise. How you square that with your supposed State power to divest us of our Second Amendment Rights belongs in the realm of delusional fantasy.

The Rights in the BoR are supposed to be inviolate. At least, they were written to be broad and specific. If it says "Shall not be infringed", with no qualifiers as to who may be doing the infringing (as in the First's prohibitions on Congress), then NO ONE... State or local... may "infringe" on that Right.

Despite whatever incorperation myth crap later justices and legislators came up with to keep various groups from exercising Rights that may have gotten in the way of the relentless pursuit of power.

Further... you don't have to agree with me. Try a dose of reality. In the Founders day, you could walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a rifle on your shoulder and a flintlock on your belt. Try it now and see how much things have changed.

430 posted on 01/17/2006 12:23:36 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. -El Neil)
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