Posted on 01/12/2006 9:48:27 PM PST by Lorianne
I love your straightforwardness. :-) Oh really? I'd say about 10% of your population does.
Proof? And not just empty Blah Blah!
Well said!
BS
Since my family lost 44 members to the holocaust I obviously have every right to preach you about how to treat prisoners?!?
Contemporary Germany has nothing to do with nazi Germany. Your failing arguments are a form of bossy and primitive political auto-erotic.
It is indeed not funny.
One of my grandfathers was a "honored" member of the Wehrmacht during WWII. After the war my mother married into a family that is partly jewish. So I know the story from both sides and I hate nazis more than anything else, since I knew some real ones. I have to add that my grandfather was never involved in war-crimes. He served as a pilot in the German airforce and fought against American and British bombers with some success. Although he was once convinced through the German propaganda of these days he changed completely over the years. He heared for the first occaision that "something was not okay" in late 1944 and did not believe it at that time. Many Germans thought that those "Holocaust-stories" were so called "gruel-propaganda" (in German: Gräuelpropaganda) of the allies. Of course all Germans were not sensitive enough when their jewish neighbours were deported in the first years of the war. This fact and certainly the political turn to Hitler and his ideology in 1933 are the real failures of the common Germans of that time. Anyway they do not play a active role in contemporary Germany anymore. They vanish due to biological reasons.You can imagine that I am well aware about the criminal madness of Adolf Hitler and his scum. Furthermore I do not deny any reasonable discussion over him and his crimes. I simply hate such dumb and idiotic prejudices that all Germans have their part in a "collective guilt". This claim is wrong anyway. Most of my living compatriots were born after 1945. There are really only very few of the real old nazis left and it is unfair to bring me or other German members of my generation in association with their crimes.
Of course I understand the anger of the survivors and their offspring. Until the last victim is alive, Germany has a particular responsibility for sure. We are one of the very few countries that confronted itself intensivly with its own history. A result of this is that the Germans who live and act today are no nazi monsters anymore. Therefore Hitler, nazis, KZs as a issue in a discussion about contemporary relations between Germany and America are simply no matter of actual interest anymore. This is why I react quite snappy when anybody is insulting me to be a nazi.
Personally I believe that it was wrong to play the peacenik card for Germany on the Iraq issue, since the Saddam regime was something evil. On the other hand our people were absolutely against a war because nobody believed into the given reasons in 2003 (WMD's). As you probably know they turned out to be wrong exept of a few old chemical junk warheads. Anyway this war against this monster Saddam was worth the sacrifice and it would have been good if Germany would have shouldered its share. The old problem with Germany is that the wrong conclusions were made out of the nazi disaster. Instead of fighting fiercely for freedom our gouvernments tend to appease because the enemies could get some psychological damage if they have to fight against the bad bad nazis again....
Not directly but indirect.
The whole point is that we aren't killing was prisoners in prison.
I never said that.
I was in Germany for two years from 1984-86 in the Eifel.
Bitburg?
We had a German civilian on base who actually had a leadership role of some sort in the radio maintenance shop who was an avowed Nazi.
The US have their nazi movement too. It seems a tragedy that such scum never dies out - nowhere.
I know Nazism is not running loose in Germany, but it still takes a lot of nerve for a nation who slaughtered millions of noncombatants to try to judge us for holding these terrorists in prison and off our streets.
No. It is a normal matter of discussion. America is not a religion. Therefore it is in your very own interest when your ideas and policies are stay in the discussion. Countries that fail to discuss end like the old USSR.
I wrote already in my #13:
The Gitmo-discussion is that important on our side of the Atlantic because a majority of Europeans do not share the will to deal with their prisoners the way the US are doing. This is a simple fact. Until recently we shared the same position concerning human rights with the US. It was easy to be in line with you then. After 9/11 this platform was definitly lost. Merkel as a elected leader of 80.000.000 Europeans has the duty to tell Pres. Bush that something fundamental had changed in our relationship. Doesn't she? Of course they also could drink some coffee together and talk politely about the weather...
I am real. The problem is, that there exists no "community in values" anymore if such issues can not be discussed. If this "community in values" is not the foundation of our relationship anymore, there will be absolutely no support from western Europe for the US since we have nothing left in common then.
Merkel is just trying to stop the erosion of this relationship. It is worth a try.
' If this "community in values" is not the foundation of our relationship anymore, there will be absolutely no support from western Europe for the US since we have nothing left in common then. '
Community of values? How PC can one get?
Community of values can be defined as nothing less than "when the US capitulates and agrees that Europe is right."
That's not our style.
It would be sad if you Americans would not be able to define your own values. I do not believe in such a failure. We will find our community of values again for sure and no side has to "capitulate". Just wait and see.
WE have values. We hunt those who attack us. Meanwhile, Europe talks "community of values". America is actually DOING something while europe wrings its collective hands in distress. Peddle appeasement elsewhere as it will be shouted down here.
Never forget.
I thought the same thing this morning when I heard her news conference with Bush. Just incredulous.
The thing is that our gouvernment can and will not support wars our people do not believe in (I believed in this war but that doesn't play a role here). Freedom means the possibility to say no. This possibility is substancial and a value for itself. We do not take orders.
Where is your proof that "nobody" in Europe crouches down to Islam and licks OBL's hand?
Muslim populations in Europe are getting close to 10%. Most Muslims cheered the 9/11 bombings and hailed as OBL as a modern day Salahaddin.
Take a hike. Germans have no leg to stand on to tell the US how to handle prisoners of war.
Herr Bridge:
The United States knows that it's at war. We recognize the asymmetrical nature of this war which Guantamo is a response to. We do know that the Europeans do not get it or at least old Europe does not get it. That's fine. But therefore, your lack of help in fighting this war has not entitled Chancellor Merkel to say much on Guantanamo. She can talk but it will be just blah blah. My reaction on the subject is likely to be President Bush's reaction. So there we sit.
These are unlawful combatants not innocent civilians rounded up.
If you can identify one prisoner in Guantanamo who is innocent, I might believe you and Merkel have a point worth making. Evidence of subsequent recapture of released prisoners from Guantanamo would seem to indicate that we are too lax in our release policy, not the other way around.
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