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To: Michael81Dus
It appears as if you are the beneficiary of all the good will Schroeder has earned from us over the past few years ;-)

Actually, things will calm down and relations will improve between the US and Germany now that Merkel is Chancellor. What most Europeans don't realize is that the Internet now connects us and we are watching. Where in the past it made good local politics to bash the US since we mostly ignored Europe, we are now paying more attention to you.

Regarding Gitmo, I believe there are two issues that are being combined resulting in some confusion.

1) Treatment of unlawful combatants

IMO, this is the easiest. Basically, an unlawful combatant is one that doesn't identify themselves (with a uniform) and doesn't limit themselves to military targets.

These people are not subject to the Geneva convention. According to the rules of war, they can be summarily executed. We have chosen not to do this (and it really is not an option politically) and instead put them in a military prison.

2) Determination of who is an unlawful combatant

This is the sticking point, IMO. We say that we are at war and as such, captured combatants will get a military tribunal, not a trial. These people do not have the status of Prisoner of War because they were unlawful.

You say that these people could be innocent and should get a full trial to determine their guilt and innocence.

This is a tricky issue. When you are at war, you can not give every captured enemy soldier a trial. By the same token, no one wants to condemn innocent people. I think some sort of middle ground is needed, maybe the evidence presented at the tribunal needs to be made public. I don't know.

However, I hope we can both agree that the terrorists have caused this problem because they are an organized, international organization yet they hide in the civilian population.

245 posted on 01/13/2006 6:36:25 AM PST by ProudGOP
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To: ProudGOP
This is the sticking point, IMO. We say that we are at war and as such, captured combatants will get a military tribunal, not a trial. These people do not have the status of Prisoner of War because they were unlawful.

You say that these people could be innocent and should get a full trial to determine their guilt and innocence.

He has been told this many times, in many ways on this thread. It's hard to keep saying it over and over again. After a while all you w can do is throw your hands up and realize that if they aren't putting blood and sweat and tears on the line then they really have no business making decisions about how it is done.

246 posted on 01/13/2006 7:20:44 AM PST by StarCMC (Old Sarge is my hero...doing it right in Iraq! Vaya con Dios, Sarge.)
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To: ProudGOP

"This is a tricky issue. When you are at war, you can not give every captured enemy soldier a trial. By the same token, no one wants to condemn innocent people. I think some sort of middle ground is needed, maybe the evidence presented at the tribunal needs to be made public. I don't know.

However, I hope we can both agree that the terrorists have caused this problem because they are an organized, international organization yet they hide in the civilian population."

I think that is the crux of the matter: We need to get together and write some new international law as to what to do with terrorists or unlawful combattants. As long as there's no right and internationally binding way, bickering from nations like Germany is to be expected, especially if there are German nationals held at Gitmo etc. Because that's only natural, if the German (or British, for that matter) press keeps mentioning the fact that "they keep Germans there" every second day or so (irrespective of the question whether that German national is guilty or not).

And so I think Merkel was spot-on whe she said that finding and defining international standard procedures is something that needs to be discussed.


247 posted on 01/13/2006 9:51:09 AM PST by wolf78
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